The Streets We Stopped Walking

In this episode, Lyssia sits down with Paul Stout, the creator behind Talking Cities, whose content has helped millions of people understand why some places feel alive and others feel completely soulless. Growing up in Los Angeles and experiencing walkable city life for the first time in Salzburg, Austria, Paul became obsessed with one question most of us never think to ask: why do some cities feel good to move through, and others make you want to leave as soon as possible?

The conversation breaks down why car-centric design has quietly shaped the way we think, feel, and connect with the world around us in ways most people never notice. They explore why American cities used to be far more walkable than they are today, how something as simple as the width of a street or the scale of a building can completely change your experience of a place, and why the cities that feel most alive all share one thing in common. They were designed for people first, not cars. Paul also shares what years of studying urban design has taught him about what we all instinctively want from the places we live, and the one shift in thinking he would give anyone who wants to start seeing their city differently.

By the end of this episode, you may start to move through your city in a completely new way. Not as a passenger, but as someone who finally understands what they are feeling and why.

More Room to Think:

Paul Stout
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/paulwillstout/

Room to Think:
https://roomtothinkpodcast.com/

Subscribe to Room to Think

If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share it with someone who would appreciate a more thoughtful approach to their space. New episodes every week. Build a better life by design.

Spotify | Apple Podcasts | YouTube | Instagram

Transcript

Freedom From The Car

Paul Stout 0:00

Cars are often sold with this idea that like you have the freedom to go wherever you want, whenever you want. But I think something that's not thought about as frequently is the freedom from the car.

Lyssia Katan 0:08

What's a place you would say has like that perfect sense of closure?

Paul Stout 0:13

The reality is American cities used to be a lot more walk. I was so interested in the spaces between the buildings and the way that the whole thing kind of comes together to form this cohesive place. That grabbed my attention and basically never like real estate and real to development. Inherently conservative in that they fund things that have worked in the past. There's no reason to take risks. They know it works and they'll continue to do that.

Lyssia Katan 0:32

How much of that is done to control human behavior?

Paul Stout 0:37

If I could just do one takeaway, I think it would be to start to ask why.

Lyssia Katan 0:43

Why is it that some cities feel really good to walk around, where others make you want to leave as soon as possible? Welcome to Room to Think. Today I'm sitting down with Paul Stout. He's the creator behind Talking Cities, and his content has helped millions of people understand why some places feel alive and others feel completely soulless. In this episode, Paul breaks down why car-centric cities can feel isolating and how something as simple as the width of a street or the height of a building can completely change your experiences. We also get into why Learn to Ask, why does this feel this way? Might be the most important design skill you can develop. By the end of this episode, you may start to see your city and your street in a completely new way.

Meet Paul Stout And His Work

Lyssia Katan 1:32

Let's get into it. Hi, Paul. How are you?

Paul Stout 1:35

Hi, Lisa. I'm good. How are you?

Lyssia Katan 1:37

I'm good. I'm good. Paul Stout is the creator behind talking cities. You've for sure seen his content on TikTok or Instagram. He breaks down urban design, architecture, and city planning in a way that's really easy to understand. And he's helping people put language to why some places feel right and others feel off, and how design really shapes our everyday life. So, Paul, welcome to Room to Think.

Paul Stout 2:01

Thank you for having me.

Lyssia Katan 2:02

So, for anyone who's seeing your work or maybe not even seen it yet, uh, what do you do exactly and why do you do it?

Paul Stout 2:10

Um, I right now am a content creator. So I've been doing content kind of on and off for a number of years, and right now I'm doing it kind of full time. And um I started doing this back during the pandemic when I was, at the time, I had just finished my undergrad and I was applying to grad school. I had done a study abroad in Salzburg, Austria, and I just got fascinated by cities. Um that was like my first time living um in a city where I was able to walk and ride my bike and take public transit. Um, having grown up in Los Angeles, that was just not really something that I was super, you know, uh exposed to. And I I lived in what was basically a walkable city for the first time and thought this is the coolest thing ever. And um I was applying to grad school and was reading a ton of the books that are required for like, you know, for the the pre prerequisite books, and um started making content and um it went super viral and um kind of been making content ever since.

Lyssia Katan 3:13

Very cool. What what got you into this? Was it just your experience in Austria or were you curious about this from a younger age?

Paul Stout 3:22

Um it really was that experience. The funny thing is is um, you know, growing up, I had always had like a bit of an interest in architecture, but nothing that would make me pursue a career in it. I I could never really get into like one building enough to like fall in love with architecture as a discipline. But um this whole idea of like city planning, urban planning, urban design is a field, um, was really, really uh, I mean, that that was like totally new to me. Um, but that was really compelling. Like the I was so interested in the spaces between the buildings and the way that the whole thing kind of comes together to form this cohesive place. Um and yeah, that that grabbed my attention and basically never let go.

Salzburg Shock And Walkable Living

Lyssia Katan 4:02

What was the first adjustment that you felt when you moved from a place like Los Angeles to Austria? A lot of those European cities are walking cities.

Paul Stout 4:11

Yeah, I mean, I I I think it was this this um, you know, it oftentimes in the US we think about the freedom to drive, you know, like like cars are often sold with this this idea that like you have the freedom to go wherever you want, whenever you want. But I think something that's not um thought about as frequently is the freedom from the car. And I think that at that time, what I really experienced was this freedom from having to look for parking, this freedom from having to worry about um, you know, where am I gonna leave the car, all those sort of things. I mean, and then everything that comes with it, right? Maintenance, um gas. But like it was that freedom from, I think, that really struck me. It was this ability that I I was able to um, you know, I could walk to go visit friends, and if it was late, I could take the bus back. You know, it's just a little it it's a sort of like freedom in in choosing how you get around, I think is what really struck struck me for the first time.

Lyssia Katan 5:04

Do you

How Car Centric Cities Change Us

Lyssia Katan 5:05

think in the US it's purely a matter of space just because everything is so widely spaced out? Or do you think it's done strategically?

Paul Stout 5:15

I mean, it strategically almost implies that like there is some you know master plan for cities to not be lockable, you know. Maybe. I mean, like it's I think I think it's a relatively common sentiment, but it it is, it's I would describe it more as like um you'd be sleepwalked into it. You know, the reality is American cities used to be a lot more walkable. Uh, you know, one of the the stats I like is that you know, in the 1930s, Los Angeles had one of the largest public transit networks in the world, um, mostly streetcars. But um that all went away mid-20th century. So, you know, in many ways, the US used to be a lot more walkable. And we've kind of been involved in this experiment, you know, of making it more autocentric for a long time. Um, and obviously there's varying degrees of success with that. Some places, some people like that, and um, you know, for those that don't, there are the few walkable pockets in the US.

Lyssia Katan 6:11

What do you think that does to us, the the autocentric cities?

Paul Stout 6:15

It does a lot. And that that's like, you know, kind of why I got so interested in this and and thought about making content about this, is because uh the environment we live in has a huge impact on us, right? Um I think that the you know, if you take like the standard kind of auto-centric city in the US, um, it consumes a lot of space, right? So for people that like nature, you know, you people often lament the loss of farmland, of natural areas that get, you know, subdivided up and built in suburbs. But also, too, like it's it's um it's very expensive. The infrastructure involved with highways is is among the most expensive infrastructure we can build. Um, I think to some degree it's socially isolating, you know. Uh people see they see their neighbors less often than they used to, they see their friends less often than they used to. I think, you know, people talk about the decline of kids going to play outside, but part of that is it's gotten more dangerous for kids to go play outside with the advent of you know, cars getting bigger, roads getting bigger. Um, you know, just the idea of like being able to let the kids go ride bikes outside is almost a foreign concept in many places. Um so there's all these like second-order effects that happen uh that I think are rather unfortunate. Um, because like I said, I I think it's a problem that like we kind of all sleepwalked into collectively. Um a bit born out of convenience, but um it's not I feel like we're at a we're at a turning point. Like I think that around the pandemic, we kind of started to think about how we were engaging with outdoor space um and like what our cities looked like you know, as traffic declined in many places, you know, uh you had things like outdoor dining. And I think people began to think, oh, you know, this is kind of nice, right? Um I mean, one example I think of is even in like a suburban environment, like a uh a vlog party, you know, like people love that, you know. And it's this the reimagining of like, okay, what are we using all this space for? You know, if this space can be used for us to to gather and spend time together, um, in many ways that's a that's a big benefit.

Lyssia Katan 8:16

That actually makes me think of something I read that lawns used to not be a thing. It was just, and and correct me if I'm wrong, landlords like using extra space that they had for nothing just to show their wealth. Is is that true?

Paul Stout 8:30

Yeah, yeah. I mean, in many ways, that was like a um it it it really goes back to like um like the uh landed gentry type times where you know you people had these massive estates and uh being able to have land that was not productive was um essentially a flex, as you would say today. Um you know, it was a sign of wealth, right? Of saying, I have all this land, I have so much of it, I don't even need to use it. Um and lawn since then have, you know, I mean, um they've become very commonplace throughout the US.

Lyssia Katan 9:04

Which is crazy.

Paul Stout 9:05

Yeah, it's just these days it it's our most irrigated crop. That that's like the reality, is like we use more water on lawns than anything else, um, which is uh kind of staggering.

Lyssia Katan 9:17

I've gone down the deep rabbit hole. Um, I think it was, I forget what book, I think it was the Anthropocene Reviewed. I could be totally wrong, but it we're talking about like the different types of grass and how much water it requires, and it's it's so critical when really it's it's not. But uh so you really in what you do, you educate people on spaces and how they feel when they're in there and why they feel that way.

Learning The Language Of Place

Lyssia Katan 9:43

Why do you think that we as a collective are missing that language to be able to explain?

Paul Stout 9:48

Um what I I think talking about it from the perspective of how we feel about it is an easy way to make it more accessible, I think. And and that's like there's like two reasons for that. The first one is that um I think oftentimes like discussions about urban planning and cities can get uh very analytical, right? It's like how many cars per hour flow down this highway, you know, like what's the subway ridership levels like. And those are very important ways of considering that, but they tell you very little about how a place feels. Um and the second part of this is it's is you know, people respond really well to like how they feel about places, you know, and so when it comes to let's get this message out in a way that it can be spread as widely as possible, um, using language that's that that you know people already have to talk about places they may not have thought about, um, is I think the the way to kind of make that that conversation much more accessible.

Lyssia Katan 10:41

Was there anything that surprised you as you started uh as you started releasing this information to the world and and their feedback that you got?

Paul Stout 10:50

I think in terms of I I mean, I I think what surprised me is just how much demand there was for places to be better. You know, I mean, there is a uh I I I think there's a lot of people who who wish that the world around them, you know, whether they're cities, uh neighborhoods, um, looked different. I uh that number is I I think a lot higher than we realize. Um and I think it's it's I I think there's a couple things going on. I I think it's only once you're you're kind of uh someone points that out to you that you may start to look at it differently, um, which is what I kind of hope to do online on social media. But I I think that's also being driven by the fact that this, you know, the younger generation is traveling more than you know previous generations had, you know, and part of that was for a long time airfare was really cheap, you know, historically speaking. And it was it was much easier than ever to travel to new places. And the issue is the US as a country is so standardized. You know, and you talk about like how places look, um, it's so standardized that if you haven't gotten a chance to go to New York or Boston or Washington, D.C. Um, or San Francisco, or some of these few pockets of of you know older cities that retain a lot of their walkability, um, you don't know what that looks like. And that's not that's not your fault, right? That's just that that was the hand you were dealt. Um so I think that the more that people begin to see what different, you know, see what different places look like, um, the more they can kind of begin to say, actually, I'd like some of this too, where I live.

Lyssia Katan 12:19

Yeah, that that's actually a really interesting point because I mean, uh it's something I'm so amazed by in the U.S. For example, I was just in Denver. And if you take out the mountains and you take out the, you know, the landscape, it could be Florida, it could be Texas, it could be somewhere in New Jersey. It doesn't look different. And and it's so like that's part of the American standardization, which is very convenient at times, but it also kind of takes the soul out of a place.

Paul Stout 12:47

Yeah. Yeah. And I I think like you use the word soul, right? I think that's like a really good uh way to talk about this because like there is a sort of um like hyper-subjective way that we we talk about this, you know, and there are like there are you know urbanist architecture authors that have tried to define what that word soul, you know, what does it mean for a place to be alive? And it's very difficult to figure out what exactly it means, but you so often like know it when you see it, you know. And like I'll give an example, like you use Denver. If you go downtown where the train station is, um, there are parts of of like older Denver that are kind of unmistakably um like American West, Rocky Mountain. Uh they have something kind of unique to them. Um, but you go, you know, 20 miles outside the city, and it's just that's been erased.

Lyssia Katan 13:39

Yeah, that's that's part of why I like those historical parts. Like even in I went to school in Philadelphia and and having those really cute little historical streets, they're so magical. You can't find that. That is textbook Philadelphia. You talk about this in a really approachable way, right? Because for a long time this has not been approachable and often not something that we've even uh considered, right, until it became apparent. But what do you think the industry tends to overcomplicate when we're talking about this, like how we feel as humans in these spaces?

Paul Stout 14:10

I think that the for the longest time, the way the industry reached people about this topic was books, you know, and and um the advent of kind of social media, especially social media uh in in the form of like uh let's say short form video. I I would say specifically, like w the advent that I think made this topic a lot more accessible was uh predictive algorithms, like we first saw on TikTok, where essentially you may have an interest in many of the topics that surround urban planning. So let's say, you know, architecture, uh transportation, history, but not exactly urban planning. And those predictive algorithms are able to serve you this content you've never heard of before. And I think that that's where that like discovery element gets really powerful today. Um, so I I think it it's the industry perhaps has tried to reach people in the past, but it's just it's never been easier to reach people that are interested in a particular topic than now.

Lyssia Katan 15:09

Right. Sometimes I feel like my algorithm is reading my mind. Like I was just wondering about that. How did you know? Yeah. It's just gotten so good.

The Skill Of Asking Why

Lyssia Katan 15:18

So when someone is looking at their city and they want to see it differently, what is the first thing they should be looking for? Are they looking up? Are they looking down? Are they looking at you know the materials?

Paul Stout 15:29

Where should they look? Looking all around is a good way to start. But I I think the the other thing I would say is when it comes to like looking at your own city, um, start to ask why. You know, and and the example I would use here is it's is you can, you know, you can kind of scroll endlessly, you know, different design trends, you know, you watch a lot of HGTV and see all these sort of design trends and things, but you only really start to develop like a particular taste for it and an ability to replicate it when you start to think, you know, you start to like question why it is you like something in particular and get like really specific about it. And I think that when it comes to like looking around at your own city and the world around you in general, um learning that ability to be critical and to think like, okay, like I I don't like the way these buildings feel, you know, like they feel they make me feel uncomfortable, but like why? And like really kind of trying to figure out is it is it the height? Is it is the facade, is the facade you know entirely blank? Um, do they have all these weird balconies on them that no one's ever standing on? Um are they set back from the street in a really kind of awkward way? Uh are there like a bunch of like is there this long glass storefront that you can't see into that has this like smoked glass appearance, uh, that you can't tell if someone's watching you as you walk by? You know, trying to get kind of specific about why, I think, is is the best thing you can do to kind of start to think about that.

Lyssia Katan 17:00

That's a really good point. And especially as we, I mean, we're talking about social media and the time we spend on our phones, but also actually getting out there and actually looking at the streets and not photos of the old buildings, but actually the buildings and and really being in touch with how we feel walking by them and the different elements. So

Bauhaus History And Design Culture

Lyssia Katan 17:20

you have a video that I think is very interesting talking about the Bauhaus movement and how it was something that came out of World War I. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and and how much history influences design?

Paul Stout 17:33

Well, this is the other kind of part of this is I was a ri I was originally a history major. And not originally, I say that I did do a history degree as my undergrad. So I I think I have a little bit of like a historical lens on things, and I I maybe overemphasize the importance of history and topics. Um, you know, modernism is a very interesting movement. It dates very far back. You know, you can trace it back to the 1860s and all this. But I think that looking at the the origins of the Bauhaus in particular, many of the people that founded it had actually been involved in the war. Um, and I think that that's the sort of experience that that shapes the way that you look at the world. Um, and I mean, you know, people get very, very technical about uh Bauhaus and modernism. Um you know, Adolf Luce uh ornament and crime was what 1910, so it was before the war, you know, very top very like a complicated topic in many ways. But yeah, I mean, I think historical movements like I say historical movements, historical events like World War I are highly impactful in how um culture develops. And the Bauhaus in particular was a a um it was where the modernist culture was essentially mainstreamed, right? It was like the kind of international school of thought around that. Um, and you see things like uh graphic design that we still look at today, um, furniture that we still have in our homes today, um, and obviously like architectural theory um that is in many ways still applied today, all came out of that one place.

Lyssia Katan 19:07

Do you think that the way we live today is going to influence? I mean, you you touched on it a little bit during lockdown, we had more outdoor seating, but how else do you think what we're living through right now is going to influence the architecture of the future?

Paul Stout 19:22

It's a very good question. I mean, um, I think that that so the New York Times ran a piece uh quite a few years ago um on five over ones, which are those like kind of ubiquitous apartment complexes that um are usually around five stories tall and kind of all look the same. And the piece was kind of written in a way where it was like, guess where these all are. Um and I I think to some degree, you know, that that sort of design, um, call it contemporary, because I don't have a better I don't really have a better word for it. But um yeah, I mean, like all things, like there are certain design trends that that come and go. You know, like I think we'll look back on people painting brick homes white as like a very like 2010s, 20 early 2020s type thing. Um it's hard to say exactly what um what drives that. But I I I do think um, you know, to some degrees like social media, I I can't say if it's like downstream of culture or culture is downstream of social media. Um, but I I do think that they're they're linked, you know, and many of the trends we see online um are linked in the ways that we link to the ways that we design our world.

Lyssia Katan 20:35

One of the

Sense Of Enclosure And Human Scale

Lyssia Katan 20:36

first videos I saw of yours was when you were talking about the sense of enclosure. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Paul Stout 20:42

Yeah, that that's one of those um those kind of like urbanism things that I think people people tend to really uh enjoy learning about. And and that is that you know, there's this idea that we have a uh there's a type of sense of enclosure that we like, right? And um, you know, there's a couple different examples you can use of it, but one is it's like if you walk out on a street that's way too wide, you know, there's this, there's this feeling of being exposed. And if you're walking on a street that's like a little bit more narrow, right, and has buildings that are not too high, not too short, um, you wind up with this this like nice, cozy sense of enclosure. Um and I think that uh people really respond to that because they have they felt that themselves, you know. Um they've been to cities that have that sort of many people would call it human-scale architecture, um, human-scale design. And they have uh they've been like, wow, this just feels right. Um and I I can give another example of this. If you are walking down a um, let's say like a large arterial road, and you see those signs for like strip balls, um when you're driving, those appear to be normal sized, but that's because they're designed in a way where you can See them when you're going 45 miles an hour. But when you walk past them, you realize that they are enormous. So when you're on foot, they they the scale feels off, right? If you're walking around like an old historic downtown, you might see those like cute little signs they hang right above a business. And those are designed for you walking at two miles an hour. You know, a car going 45 miles an hour cannot see that at all. And I think that that people kind of respond to like starting to think about, oh, like this has been scaled in a way that's appropriate for me. And that's that's a really that's a really nice, that's a really nice thing to experience.

Lyssia Katan 22:34

Yeah, I recently saw one of those green highway signs up close. They are massive. I never realized like who makes them so big.

Paul Stout 22:43

Yeah. They have to be so we can see them when we're going that speed. You know, but like that that's the the general critique, right? Is it's like roads get that wide when you're designing for for uh traffic flow, right? They that they get that wide when you need people to be, you know, going far distances in cars. Um and when you're on foot, you start to realize like this this feels a little off, you know. Um, I mean, the way I would think about it is people that live in, you know, kind of comfortable suburban neighborhoods, they they like it when they're scaled in a way that, you know, it's not too big, not too small. You know, there's trees, little sidewalks, the roads aren't, you know, 150 feet wide. Um yeah, people people seem to really respond to that. You know, it's all subjective, you know, is the the caveat on this. But you know, there seems to be a consensus for what people

Neighborhoods That Get It Right

Paul Stout 23:34

like.

Lyssia Katan 23:34

What's a place you would say has like that perfect sense of enclosure? And you go in and it's just a city that feels really good.

Paul Stout 23:42

I live in New York, so I I would use a lot of New York-based examples. Um, but one neighborhood in particular is the West Village or Brooklyn Heights. Um, those are two, they're obviously extremely expensive neighborhoods. Um, but what's interesting is the architecture there is is rather simple. You know, they're older buildings, they weren't particularly fancy at the time. Um and they're very pleasant neighborhoods that are maybe three, four stories, and they have these beautiful big mature trees. Uh the streets are not too wide. There are businesses at um, you know, plenty plenty of businesses at ground level. So you're walking by and kind of passing a lot of visual interest. Um, yeah, those neighborhoods are and they're really desirable places. You know, I I think people that don't live there love to just go and walk around because they're just such nice places to walk and spend time, you know?

Lyssia Katan 24:34

Yeah, myself included. I love the West Village. Do you think that that makes them so desirable because it feels good? Like, why aren't we creating more places that feel like that?

Paul Stout 24:45

I mean, that's that's the million-dollar question. You know, I like I think there should be more development that is along those lines. Um, you know, I mean, uh kind of a counterpoint to this is Hudson Yards is the the newest, latest expensive development in New York. And it looks nothing like the West Village or Brooklyn Heights does. You know, and obviously, you know, you can point to the fact that like, you know, as cities grow, you need to densify and have more housing. But the interesting thing is um we could fix all of the housing problems if you just built a hundred Brooklyn Heights in lots of different places in the country, you know? Like, you know, if you could pick this up and put it somewhere else, it would do really well. And um, you know, it's funny is is when I was fresh out of out of my undergrad, I worked for a company called Cul-de-sac that was building like kind of a neighborhood, you know, at that similar scale. People call it uh missing middle housing. And um same kind of thing, you know, in between three and four stories, narrow streets, you know, things on the ground floor. Um and it came out great.

Lyssia Katan 25:45

Why do you

Why Developers Avoid Risk

Lyssia Katan 25:46

do you think it's often just like lack of budget for this kind of stuff?

Paul Stout 25:51

I think that in in many ways, uh real estate and real estate development is um they're they're inherently conservative in that they fund things that have worked in the past. You know, like there's no reason to take risk. They know it works and they'll continue to do that. So when you propose a new project, like you know, Cul de Sac is the example I'll use of like walkable, you know, mixed-use housing at that level of density and scale, um, that was initially, you know, developers were not, or I would say rather that they were a developer. I I would say um people that finance development, they were not super interested in the idea at first because uh there was risk. You know, deviation from the norm represents risk, and that's a difficult thing to do in real estate.

Lyssia Katan 26:35

And is there um when we're looking back right through historically, is there something that they did then that we judge today, but it just it made sense at the time.

Paul Stout 26:47

You you mean like things we would judge negatively, I think? Correct, today. Yeah.

Lyssia Katan 26:52

I mean, we're looking back at old architecture that looked good. What about the opposite?

Paul Stout 26:56

Yeah, um, I mean, some of the luckily enough, some of the really big mistakes never came to fruition. So um Corbusier, a very famous 20th-century modernist architect, had this plan for the city of Paris where they were going to tear down like half the city and make these like enormous, you know, towers. And that sort of like a development pattern at the time was kind of called this like towers in the park, where there were these super large towers that were often surrounded by you know grass or greenery in some capacity. Um, and then lots of highways to kind of connect these places. And thankfully that did not get built. But if you look at some of the old images of it, or say images, drawings, um, you realize that would have been a really bad idea. Um and I think we look back on that that plan very, very negatively now. Um, and I'm very happy. I think a lot of people are very happy that it didn't get built.

Lyssia Katan 27:51

Right. And when you do look at Paris today, for example, like the street of the Champs-Dlyse, correct me if I'm wrong, but the same guy uh designed Philadelphia's um uh avenue, like right where as you go to the art museum in Philadelphia and you have trees on both sides, uh, and it it worked there. And it's one of my favorite streets in Philadelphia. It's just it it works.

Paul Stout 28:12

Yeah, yeah. No, um, I don't know as much about the particular history of Philadelphia, but I do know that uh DC is designed, you know, there's a very close relation between the design of DC and Paris. And that's particularly because um Paris was had this huge redevelopment um under what was called the Hausman Plan. Um and that late 1800s was basically um they cleared a lot of the like kind of denser housing on narrow streets and and made these kind of like wide grand boulevards. Um and that's that big boulevard movement was big. DC is laid out like that. Um I I I know the exact street you're referring to in Philly, and it's certainly, you know, you walk through there and you're like, oh yeah, that that's exactly like Paris, you know?

Lyssia Katan 28:56

Yeah. It's the parkway, Benjamin Franklin Parkway. That's the one. Yeah, it's oh it's so nice. You can see from the art museum all the way down to city skyline. And so what what are the elements on that street, for example, that really like make us

Vistas Sublime Moments And Awe

Lyssia Katan 29:11

feel good? What are what are we looking for?

Paul Stout 29:13

I think right there is something called a terminating vista, which is where it's like there is this viewpoint that exists at the end of a street. And you'll cut you'll sometimes see them, uh I mean, you can see them in lots of different scales, right? There's like there's ones like like in Philly, where you you know you turn and you look down this like long boulevard at this beautiful art museum standing up on a hill at the end, you know, and it's meant to be this moment that you experience. And this is, you know, to some degree, um, plans like that are they're more landscape architecture than they are architecture. They're a bit of urban design, it's kind of a bit of everything. But I think in some in some ways, like landscape architecture is this, this, um, this discipline where you you plan for these moments that you experience. And I think that that's one of those superpower moments. Um I give another example of this. Uh places in in Florence, um, the duomo is set like right in the city center. And there are a few streets where you turn the corner and you just it's just there. You see it. And it's just it stops you dead in your tracks. Um, and it's that terminating vista is usually what designers refer to it as, but uh produces a really powerful moment.

Lyssia Katan 30:21

What about when that moment isn't a man-made object? Because I believe you have a video about like a natural waterfall, correct? Where that's the moment. How how do they plan around that?

Paul Stout 30:31

Well, that's that's this idea of the sublime, right? And and that is this this sort of like um enlightenment era idea that uh when you witness something you know natural, you have this like this this visceral reaction. Um, and you know, it's funny, I I remember people kind of debating in school whether or not the sublime could be something you experience in a city or if it always has to be natural. Um I guess it kind of depends on on who you ask. But uh for people that have that have stood in front of like some you know someplace that I would say inspires awe, right? You go to the Grand Canyon, you see like a massive waterfall, those sort of moments. Um I I do personally think you can see them and you can experience that same sense sense of awe in some cities. You know, if you've walked through parts of Manhattan where you turn and you see that like skyscraper canyon that just goes on forever, like there is a feeling of awe in that. Um, but yeah, I I think that's another thing is is you know, this is kind of why I I try to be broad with my content and work is is, you know, I want to try to include the natural world as well, because you know, we we do have these sort of uh awe-inducing experiences um both in cities and in nature.

Lyssia Katan 31:40

And how much though of those experiences, like you mentioned, the sublime experience, are naturally like that or fabricated, like where they cut the trees just the right amount so we can see just enough of the waterfall?

Paul Stout 31:53

It depends on the place, you know. Um I think you're referring to the Lawrence Halpern's his Yosemite Falls, uh, which is one of my favorite like that's one of my favorite examples of like landscape design, landscape architecture, because um, you know, it's designed to appear natural, you know, and that's like one of the interesting things about landscap landscape architecture is in some ways um the goal of it is to really get out of its own way and have you not even notice it's happening. Um, and I think that really kind of embodies that experience where you uh you know you turn the corner essentially and you look and just like there it is, right? Um I think if you go to a lot of natural, like a lot of national parks, you'll experience those sort of of um moments. Um but even sometimes just hiking on certain trails, like trail designers, um they intentionally plan where trails go, you know? And there can be a lot of moments where trails let off um at a particular perspective or vista um kind of designed around that. So look for it and see, you know, when you're there yourself, you know, try to look around and think, you know, was this trail always here? Um who placed it here? Why was it placed here? You know, you can start to kind of think about this yourself.

Lyssia Katan 33:07

That's such a good point because so many times, like you're like, wow, who like it's just beautiful view. It just happens to be at the top of this mountain, and you're like, wait a second, like this was all done so strategically. But I mean, if if you're driving so far to get to a national park, you might as well get a good you know payoff by the time you get

Does Planning Control Behavior

Lyssia Katan 33:28

there. So and and and when it comes to city planning, like how much of that is done to control human behavior? Is that usually taken into account, like when they build the smaller streets versus the wide streets, because they're easier to maybe crowd control? How much of that is is an element?

Paul Stout 33:48

In in my experience, not as much. You know, um, I think there's less thought around that now, but I I think that's also um, you know, you talk about like modern city planning. It's kind of I think modern city planning is kind of calcified to some degree, where we don't do those sort of like bold, like build a new city from scratch type things anymore. Um, so in many ways, like we have the code that we have, and um to some degree it kind of is what it is. Like, you know, whether or not um wide arterial streets lead to human flourishing is is not exactly something that urban planners get to weigh in on as much, right? Um and maybe it should be, you know, but the way that things are kind of set up right now, that's just not how it works.

Lyssia Katan 34:37

And do you think that people uh when they when they are walking through a city, regardless of how it was designed, when they feel like it's off, do you think they're usually right, even if they can't explain it?

Paul Stout 34:47

I think that people, you know, obviously they know it feels good to them, you know. And um this also kind of gets to the point of like people live in different places, they they have certain things, they have different things that make you know that may feel right to them, right? And like we use the example of like Brooklyn Heights um or the West Village as like neighborhoods that like we find objectively lovely. But um someone who um lives in a much more rural setting may just love wide open spaces, you know. Um, but to them, like the the antithesis of that is then like suburban development, you know. So like I think different people have different ideas of what is like really, really lovely to them. Um but this kind of goes back to the the the question we're the question earlier, which is uh ask why you really like something, you know. Um so when you have the sort of reaction, you you know, you see something, you hate it, you see something you love it, really kind of ask why. You know, each person's gonna have their own, you know, kind of objective truth on what what feels good to them. Uh I I do think there is a bit of a kind of a general consensus for people. There is like a like I would say like a middle ground, you know, and like once again, you're gonna we're gonna beat this example to death of a West Village. I think like a lot of people that um maybe spent time growing up in suburbs um or like also lived in like very high-risey parts of the you know city, country, they could come to that middle ground and be like, oh, this is really nice, you know. So I do think there are like a lot of kind of middle grounds, so to speak.

Cities To Visit For The Aha

Lyssia Katan 36:20

So West Village aside, we love the West Village, it really hits the spot. What are some we have listeners from all over the world? What are some places that you could recommend for people to really go to be able to be like, okay, I get it? Copenhagen.

Paul Stout 36:36

That's a really good one. Like Copenhagen is a good international example. Um, they have been um really on top of it from like an urban design perspective. I think uh it's one of the few places you can go and see like new development that you're like, oh, I would live here in a heartbeat, you know. Um plentiful park space around, um, really kind of thoughtful design, great scale, um set in great locations, super accessible. But it's it's other things too. Like um the bike infrastructure there is unbelievable. You know, like uh there's one IKEA they've just opened like in the city center in Copenhagen, and the main parking lot is all for bikes. And they have this sort of like um cargo bike rental where you could buy something and then like rent the cargo bike right there, go ride ride home, drop it off, and then return it. Um I believe they have an underground parking garage for um cars, people that drive in from wherever. But uh for people that live in the city, that's like a perfect uh you know, perfect example of of like how much different things can look, you know? Um but two, they've also got the the park space is super plentiful. They have um the waterfront there is this super cool interactive waterfront where it's like they've cleaned up the harbor such that you can actually swim in it. Um, and these like wonderful wood platforms where people lay out in the sun and swim in the summertime. It's really cool. It's a spectacular city.

Lyssia Katan 38:01

I think also so much of that is like it feels like there's thought in the design. Like when I was living in Center City, Philadelphia, whenever I went to go get groceries and I wanted to walk, I had to take one of those, like, you know what I'm talking about, one of those metal strollers that makes you feel like, you know, a hundred-year-old grandma rolling her or like a cat lady, you know, rolling herself home. And you're like, I don't, I don't want to be doing this. But if you have a cargo bike and it's just normal, um, you know, your friends don't make fun of you for your grandma trolley.

Paul Stout 38:33

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. I mean, the those sort of trolleys are really entertaining, especially in places like Philly where you're like going over 200-year-old streets and everything's super uneven and bumpy and um which is charming, but it can be difficult from an accessibility standpoint. Um, I think the another way to think about that too is um it doesn't really have to be that way, right? Like um people always associate like Paris with bakeries, right? And the reality is the average Parisian lives extremely close to a bakery, you know. Um so you start to ask, well, could we do that with smaller grocery stores? You know, like um there are examples of like super small little grocery stores that can provide you know good daily needs, right? Um, and you wouldn't need to bring a uh a trolley if you were you know two or three blocks from that. Um so it there are ways that like policy can fix this where you would aim to you know zone this in a way where it makes it easier for you know grocery stores to form in certain places. Um but that that that kind of gets back to this thing, like you know, uh these sort of design decisions in terms of how like how the world looks, um, they can they can be changed, you know, and there's like international examples a great way to like think about how much different things could be.

Lyssia Katan 39:48

Right. I

Copenhagen And Missing Middle Housing

Lyssia Katan 39:49

mean you talked about the new build in Copenhagen. What about the new build makes it so desirable that maybe American new builds are not as desirable?

Paul Stout 39:59

So this is gonna venture very much into architecture, which is you know, um not I I studied landscape architecture, not architecture. So in some ways, I know a lot about this, but I'm not an architect, preface this. Um there's a couple differences. The first is um single single stairway buildings are much more common internationally. And in the US, it's much more difficult to get them built from a regulation standpoint. Um, someone could go down the rabbit hole and explain exactly why. Same thing with elevators. Um, residential elevators in the US cost um, you know, substantially more than they cost than almost any other part of the developed world. Uh, New York Times has this fascinating article on residential elevators that explain a lot of this. But you know, this this kind of comes down to like um building footprint zoning cost. Uh and I I think that a lot of the new builds in Copenhagen, they're allowed to do things that were not in the US. That's the very kind of simple simple answer. And it's really nice to be able to do those, you know. Um I think that the US struggles from this lack of what uh what is called in many ways that missing middle housing. Where we're used to having um single family detached homes. We're even used to like duplexes and things like that. But there's very little precedent for things that exist between that and those sort of like big five over one apartment complexes. You know, and people may say, like, I don't want to live in this big apartment complex, and like that's okay. You know, people have personal preference where they want to live, but you know, maybe you would actually like to live in in this sort of like three to five-story, you know, mixed, mixed use, uh missing middle housing type place. Um one example I I can think of is we have a few of these in the US, not as many. Um the uh like the bungalow courts, which are these sort of like um Los Angeles has a has a lot of these, actually, they're from you know pre-1940s, really, pre-parking minimums essentially. And um imagine like you take up like you know your standard lot and you place like four little detached houses on it, you know, and there's like a central facing yard, lots of greenery, um, kind of open space, you don't share walls with anyone. Um it's not as dense as an apartment complex, but it's much denser than a single family home. It's this sort of like missing middle housing we don't have a lot of. Um so I I think like when you think about examples of um architecture or housing that we don't see a lot of in the US, it's it's things like that.

Lyssia Katan 42:29

What are

Parking Minimums And Convenience

Lyssia Katan 42:30

the things that you said we're not allowed to do in the US that they are able to do in Copenhagen?

Paul Stout 42:35

Parking minimums is one. I mean, the US has very strict minimums in terms of how much parking is required for particular projects. And um, it's not just housing, it's it's all sorts of businesses. And I'll one of my my favorite example because it just kind of highlights you know how kind of absurd the whole thing is, but like many bars have a minimum required number of parking spaces to be built. And it's just so funny because it's like, do we want to incentivize that sort of behavior? You know? Um, but it's just one of those things. When you when you design a city in a way where getting you know getting around uh via car is the only way to do it, then you have to have parking for people because that's their only way to get around. You know, if you don't have parking, people will not go to the business, you know? Um and then even then, the people that underwrite and finance the projects, they will not give you money if you don't provide parking. You know, so there's this sort of like cold start problem where it's like, you know, changing that um requires stopping this moving flywheel. Um and that's very difficult to do.

Lyssia Katan 43:35

That's understandable. Because I don't go places that I can't park. I'm like, if it's if it's a whole ordeal to park to get groceries, I'll just go to where there's a parking lot. But you are there plenty of places that I prefer to go to because but they just have lack of parking. Yeah, absolutely. But sometimes you pick convenience, and that's that's tends to be something that's very prevalent in America. It's convenience, it's a land of convenience. And if it's not convenient, we're not doing it. Which is which is um not great. Not great.

Paul Stout 44:06

I mean, growing up in Los Angeles, the, you know, the the question people ask before you go anywhere is what's the parking situation? You know? Um, so I know I've asked myself. I get it, you know?

Lyssia Katan 44:15

We

Ride Share And The Future Of Parking

Lyssia Katan 44:16

have Ubers and Lyfts, and now with hopefully self-driving vehicles becoming a little bit more prevalent, maybe we won't need cars as much, right? There will constantly be a stream of self-driving vehicles we can jump in and take us to where we need to go.

Paul Stout 44:28

Yeah. No, the you know, the self-driving vehicle and the Uber rideshare type thing is, you know, some people in the urban planning world are, you know, they it can be kind of polarizing. Um, I think what sometimes people miss in the whole discussion about things like that is it's not so much a like a transportation innovation as it is a land use innovation. And why I say that is because you don't need parking at the destination or the origin. So that kind of changes the way you're able to build cities. So, you know, if more people are using ride chair, then you know you can get away with having fewer parking spots, which means things can be a little bit closer together. Um, it means maybe the the relationship with the business in the street is a little bit different, which might make the area a little more walkable. Um, a lot of knock-on effects.

Lyssia Katan 45:14

Right. And maybe it'll get to a point where people really don't need cars. You just jump into whatever car is passing by and it takes you where you need to

Make Your Backyard A Real Room

Lyssia Katan 45:22

go. So, kind of along that discussion, looking forward, what do you hope that we are able to do to make our spaces feel better and more livable?

Paul Stout 45:32

Well, there's there's a couple, you know, different scales, right? There's the whole city scale, which we we just talked a lot about. Um, you know, I'm obviously very passionate about that topic, but uh I'm also super passionate about you know the smaller scale things like uh individual neighborhoods, uh backyards, landscape architecture, things like that, and then even just the design of your own home. Um and a bit of that is is just due to the you know, the realities of like what do you have control over? You know, and I think for a lot of people it's very difficult to kind of grapple with it's it's just changing your neighborhood or city takes a lot of time. But changing your backyard is relatively quick. Um, so I I I think in some ways, like what's interesting me is like this ability, like what are the different ways we can do we can make the world, so to speak, better at lots of different levels.

Lyssia Katan 46:20

Yeah, that's something we speak about quite often because uh, of course, the podcast of interior design and psychology and how can we create the spaces that are uh improving our lives and helping us live better lives? And and sometimes you really can't change the place you live. You can't change the structure of your building or you know the noise on your street, but you can change the little things like your backyard, your balcony, your design of your home, and make it work for you. So if someone listening to this podcast was to take one thing away from it, what would you want them to do or step away feeling?

Paul Stout 46:56

If I could just do one takeaway, I'd I think it would be to think about your your backyard as a room. Um I think that so often like um the like design of outdoor spaces is thought of as like a something totally different. But like the best yards, the best gardens, um, they have a comfort level you would get out of any other room that you'd have in your house.

Lyssia Katan 47:18

What about people who don't have backyards or lawns, like people who live in apartment buildings like in New York City?

Paul Stout 47:24

Yeah, um, that's where interior design becomes really important, you know. And that that's why like sometimes I I try to make content on like design principles that can be applied to um multiple different um scales and places. So, like a good example is like contrast. You know, I made a video on that recently. And contrast uh is one of those things I notice like super strongly in um landscape design, but you can also notice it a lot in interior design. And uh I think that that you know, kind of learning to recognize a lot of those design principles and then being able to apply them um to your own home, to your own life, uh feels good.

Lyssia Katan 48:00

Yeah, absolutely. I mean the contrast video is one I really loved with the light versus dark and the old versus new. And sometimes we just lack contrast in our design choices and and what we're seeing online. So I I really am grateful for all the content you are creating to encourage that and say, that's okay, contrast can exist, and it actually helps create a space that feels so much better.

Paul Stout 48:21

Yeah, and I mean, you know, to your point, like people know how spaces make you feel, you know, like you'll walk into a room and you'll be like, oh, I love this. Um, but it comes back to this, like really kind of zoning in on why, you know. Um I've like another example of this is we talked about contrast a bit, but like um old objects, having old objects, you know, kind of in your interior design, I think is is super key to like making the the place feel um alive, feel it's it's that subjective word, right? Um that like quality, it's kind of hard to name. Um and I I think that part of that is the the space is not frozen in one particular time, right? Like if you were to furnish your house with everything from IKEA today, you know, just go through and be like, I'll take that room, you know, buy it right off the shelf. You could come back 20 years later and you know it would feel dated, right? But it feels dated because it's all from that time. Whereas like if you incorporate different objects of different ages into a space, it makes it feel what some would say, timeless.

Lyssia Katan 49:28

I love that. And and I'm a huge fan of that because I have old things all over my house. My friends think I, you know, I have a grandma chic style, you know. I I found them these somewhere, and you know, they don't even make them anymore. And and I love these kinds of like things that are just so they show you like a point in time, right? I have a uh a candle, an old candle that you actually put in the oil and then you like turn and you twist it so it lights like an old candle, how they used to make candles, like they just don't make things like that anymore. And being able to look at it and say, wow, there was a time when this was the norm is so beautiful rather than just an IKEA candle that you just light and you know, it's very standard.

Paul Stout 50:10

Yeah, I I love that sort of stuff, right? And then there's also something to um this idea that, like, you know, it's they're kind of difficult to find, right? Um, it's like the friction is almost an important part of it. Um, you know, it's like fun to curate a space slowly over time by kind of like collecting lots of different little things. Um, and sometimes there can be a story attached to each of those. Like I'm sure there's a story attached to like when you found that particular item. Um, and then there's also the story of the item itself, right? It's like from a particular time. Um, and that's super, super interesting in its own way.

Lyssia Katan 50:44

Yeah, exactly. Like this candle holder that's behind me in every episode, it is from New York. It's just, it was just like a street market in New York, and uh, they don't make that anymore. But did I take it and drag it all the way down to Florida? Because I thought that piece had so much history. I'm sure it was used at some point where like a candle holder. But today we're just like, no, get rid of it. Give me, you know, get me, give me the new stuff. But the old stuff really makes us feel connected with history and with the humans that came before us, both in inside and outside our homes.

Paul Stout 51:18

And in some ways, it's probably built better than a lot of things you'd buy today. You know, so like you have that added benefit too.

Lyssia Katan 51:24

Yeah, absolutely. Paul, this has been so much fun. I really appreciate your your input on everything. I love your videos. They give me so much to think about. Um, is there anything that you want to leave our audience with?

Paul Stout 51:37

I mean,

Childhood Wonder And Final Takeaways

Paul Stout 51:38

you know, I I I do this content with this kind of like tagline of like learn learn to see the the world in a different way. And I I think the the best kind of thing I can do is that um there's almost like this like sense of like childhood wonder you should have when you kind of walk around to look at places. Like in some ways, I think that that's what really makes um makes places kind of have this sort of magic. Um like to some degree, uh, you know, you have to like you have to have a little bit of that like childhood wonder when you're like looking at these places and trying to appreciate it in some way. Because there is a bit of like you know, kind of ineffable magic in these places that's like difficult to like pin down exactly why you like, but you know how it makes you feel, you know why you like it. Um so I would say that, and then also um be critical. You know, when you like something, really kind of think about why you like it. When you don't like something, you know, really, really think about why you don't like it. You'll wind up with a sense of taste and in places and things um that you may have not had before.

Lyssia Katan 52:39

It's amazing. Thank you so much, Paul. We're gonna link your content in the show notes, and uh I really appreciate your time and and your wisdom. So thank you for being here.

Paul Stout 52:48

Yeah, thank you for having me. Big fan of the podcast. Thank you.

Lyssia Katan 52:51

Thank you so much for spending this time with me on Room to Think. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to follow the show, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who you think would really appreciate a more thoughtful approach to their space. You can find more Design Meets Psychology insights on social, in our community, and definitely in upcoming episodes so you can build a better life by design. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you next time.