Architecture Beyond The Eyes

In this episode, Lyssia sits down with architect, educator, and author Juhani Pallasmaa to talk about the sensory experience of architecture and why we experience buildings with our entire body, not just our eyes. The conversation explores how modern architecture became overly focused on vision and aesthetics, and what we lose when we ignore touch, sound, shadow, memory, and imagination in the spaces we create and live in.

They discuss why old buildings often feel more comfortable than new ones, how childhood memories shape our idea of home, why materials should age and carry time, and how even small details like a door handle can change the way we experience a building. The conversation also dives into the role of imagination, the importance of sensory awareness, and why architecture should ultimately help us feel more human, more grounded, and more connected to the world around us.

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Juhani Pallasmaa
Website: https://www.pallasmaa.fi/

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Transcript

Architecture You Feel, Not See

Juhani Pallasmaa 0:00

We are not taught at school how to imagine. Imagination is the most important quality we have makes us humans.

Lyssia Katan 0:08

What tells you immediately that it was designed primarily for the eye?

Juhani Pallasmaa 0:12

Your body tells us architecture is the art of articulating the encounter of human beings with the word in each other. The task of our senses is to give us an understanding of where we are at every moment. And that is also the task of architecture.

Lyssia Katan 0:28

How can we practice our senses to sharpen them?

Juhani Pallasmaa 0:32

In the same way that we practice anything.

A Childhood Farm Shapes A Mind

Lyssia Katan 0:36

Welcome to Room to Think. What if architecture isn't something you look at, but something you feel through your skin? Today, I'm sitting down with Juhani Pallasmaa, the renowned architect, educator, and author of The Eyes of the Skin. Juhani's work challenges the dominance of vision in modern design and reminds us that we experience architecture with our entire body, not just our eyes. We talk about why contemporary buildings often prioritize novelty over meaning, why imagination is our most powerful and neglected human quality, and how light, shadow, touch, sound, and even a door handle can either welcome you or quietly push you away. Juhani shares how childhood memory shapes our idea of home, why firelight still comforts us after thousands of years, and what happens when architecture forgets that we are deeply historical sensory beings. By the end of this episode, you'll understand what architecture is really for: to place you in time, in space, and in yourself. Let's get into Juhani Pallasmaa, what an absolute honor it is to have you on the show. Welcome to Room to Think. Thank you for the invitation. Juhani Pallasmaa is an architect, educator, and one of the most influential voices in sensory design. His work has really shaped how we understand the relationship between architecture, the body, and the mind. Juhani, thank you so much for making time. I know you're a very busy man, and we're really excited to get a chance to speak to you on the show. Starting off, your book is fantastic, and your many books are fantastic, and we will get into them. But I would love to ask you if there's a space from your childhood that really impacted you. You spoke about your grandfather's farm. Perhaps that's it. I would love to hear more about what impacted you and brought you to become the architect that you are are today.

Juhani Pallasmaa 2:35

I lived uh at my grandfather's small farm during the war years. And uh at the wartime, uh the adults were always busy, and uh children were left by themselves, and I'm very grateful for those almost five years that I was left alone to study the world without anyone uh creating confusions to my developing understanding. Uh, and uh I would say that my attitudes in my all my writings and teaching uh come from those uh early early years, uh which is as you might know, my background, philosophical background in uh writing about architecture is phenomenology. And I have often said that I I have been a phenomenologist since my childhood, because I began to observe the world, particularly uh plants and animals uh in my childhood. And it is this uh curiosity that uh still drives me. I will soon be 90, but uh I'm still writing every day.

Lyssia Katan 3:59

For listeners who may not know what phenomenology means, would you be able to describe it?

Juhani Pallasmaa 4:04

Well, phenomenology is the uh line of philosophical thinking which arises from human experience. I am concerned with the experiential world and what that uh feels like and and means to us. And um I uh agree with the British uh uh poet uh Keith uh of uh late 18th century when he said nothing is real until it has been experienced. And that is my uh uh attitude also as a teacher and architect myself.

Lyssia Katan 4:49

When you wrote The Eyes of the Skin, which is one of your books that originally started as an essay, correct?

Juhani Pallasmaa 4:56

Yes. Many of my books have initially been essays, which then have been I have expanded later.

Lyssia Katan 5:03

And Eyes of the Skin is soon going to be on Audible form, too.

Juhani Pallasmaa 5:07

Yes, I was just uh a week in London to uh in the event, uh the launching event of the audiobook. This is uh a project completely uh initiated and carried out by by other people. Uh I'm just a listener.

Why The Eyes Took Over

Lyssia Katan 5:29

Well, now there will be no excuse to not read it, but when you wrote The Eyes of the Skin, you were responding to something observed in architecture at the time.

Juhani Pallasmaa 5:40

What did you feel was missing? I was reacting to the overintellectualization and theorization of uh of architecture and aesthetization also, which all uh take it uh away from the direct experience. So I began my writing to uh defend the experiential and existential reality of architecture, and I'm still uh continuing that task 50 years later.

Lyssia Katan 6:16

So I'm very curious because one of the points you had made was architecture today is very often for vision, right? We have this obsession with vision, and that's the sense that very often is is primarily focused on, whereas in the past, even before the printing press, it was auditory or it was tactile. So uh do you see this shifting the other direction, or are we here for the vision as long as we're alive?

Juhani Pallasmaa 6:51

Very clearly the uh dominance of vision is still uh growing. I have uh written and spoken about uh natural interplay between the senses, which is a situation that I would wish architects would uh realize. Architecture deals with human life uh in a very uh deep existential sense. We need all the channels, all the categories to be able to uh manipulate or uh work in this complex reality of human experience, thinking, and imagination. Imagination for me is the most humane of our qualities, but it's rather uh little known. And uh for instance, schools of architecture usually do not teach imagination or even say much about imagination, which puzzles me.

Lyssia Katan 7:54

I find it interesting that you mentioned that today's architecture, the especially the architecture we see is large glass panes and and material that almost doesn't age and how it impacts us as humans because it's almost the sphere of aging that because we're not seeing it reflected in our architecture, like patinas or or aged wood. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Juhani Pallasmaa 8:22

The task of architecture is to create us our place in the continuum of uh both space and time. Architecture creates our home uh uh in place and time. That time aspect uh uh has uh weakened uh through through the entire development of modernity, simply because of the constantly new technology, but also the uh obsessive uh belief in novelty. I do not see any special value in novelty. The fact that something would be genuine or true uh would be much more important in my way of thinking.

Lyssia Katan 9:19

How do you think this obsession with novelty is impacting us as a species?

Novelty Culture And The Need For Roots

Juhani Pallasmaa 9:23

For instance, I have not I'm just now writing a uh uh afterward to a Greek translation of one of my books, uh The Thinking Hand. And there I write about the need for us to be rooted, to feel rooted. And in fact, my second latest book, which was published half a year ago in London, the title is Rootedness. And I think that uh it is it would be uh very important, and the only uh proper way of teaching would be to start by teaching the students who they are. Uh but that is not touched, subject is not touched uh at all. It is about uh uh historical development of the arts and architecture in order to be able to somehow focus on newness. I I think we should focus more on continuity because uh creating a uh special and temporal continuum only gives us a place in the world. And that's the primary task of architecture is to place us in the world.

Lyssia Katan 10:43

How do you go about teaching students who they are rather than novelty?

Juhani Pallasmaa 10:47

Going my uh first exercises or exercises during the first year have always uh engaged in uh the students' memories, childhood memories. I have myself, uh as I mentioned uh earlier, uh being rather interested in my own childhood and what I experienced and whatnot. In at the wartime, in the uh in a small farmhouse, there was only one one book, the Bible. But I had a much larger book, and that was nature around the farm farmhouse. Everything uh that happened there, and every day, every moment, moment, something new. So there are ways of learning, other ways of learning than just reading or or not to speak of uh being engaged in what is new. I think that is uh a rather trivial question in relation to what is the continuum of life, what is the continuum of history, what is the continuum of human reality. So there are more significant questions than novelty.

Lyssia Katan 12:07

That's a very good point you make. It's unfortunate that we're all so obsessed with novelty when there's so much we can go back on and find inspiration from. And even in this world today, with AI being becoming so prevalent, it's sometimes terrifying.

Juhani Pallasmaa 12:26

I am terrified by the fact that today we do not know who we are. In a way, we today know less than a couple of generations ago. I often ask my students, do you know what these pink triangles are in the corners of our eye? Do you know?

Lyssia Katan 12:50

No, there are tear ducts, maybe?

Technology Anxiety And Self Knowledge

Juhani Pallasmaa 12:53

The scientific uh name of these spots is Plika plica semilunaris, and they are the spots in which our horizontally moving extra eyelid was uh fixed, attached when we were lizards 65 million years ago. When we look at the mirror every morning, we look at the uh historical remain of our evolution. We don't care, we don't know. I think we should begin to become more interested in who we are.

Lyssia Katan 13:31

Fascinating. And we don't realize because I mean, similar to what you said in the book, like we are sometimes outside of ourselves, especially today. We're lost in technology, and that takes away from our present moment when we're in our bodies.

Juhani Pallasmaa 13:47

Yes, and we measure our comfort and uh and even happiness by things that are outside of us. I think the only measure for these things, uh the quality of life, is life itself.

Lyssia Katan 14:05

What would be your advice for someone who is so overwhelmed by the technology today? You know, how do we come back to ourselves? What would be your advice?

Juhani Pallasmaa 14:14

I can only, as an individual single person, speak about these things and try to give an example. I will be 90 in in a few months, but I'm still interested in simple things. And and more important in in the, for instance, the course of humanity through history, not only human history, but biological history. Because these are things that finally will determine whether we exist on Earth or not. It will be our consciousness of who we are and who we are not.

Lyssia Katan 15:00

When you discuss the architecture and really incorporating all the other senses, do you believe that incorporating additional senses besides just vision helps us bring us back to our bodies and remind us who we are rather than just beings walking around in our heads?

Juhani Pallasmaa 15:18

Yes, absolutely. The visual dominance invalidates us, makes us in uh invalids in a sense, in a sense, sensory uh manner. Uh until the um Renaissance time, or even somewhat later, uh hearing hearing and touching were the dominant senses. So this is a rather short historical development that has happened in within 250 years or something like that, which has made uh m made us uh animals that only see.

Lyssia Katan 16:00

And it's interesting because you you mentioned that we seek things out with our eyes, but sound approaches us.

Juhani Pallasmaa 16:06

Yes, yes. Yes. Well, all all the senses uh of course uh collaborate. Uh that's the reason of our senses, the task of our senses is to give us a sufficiently reliable understanding of where we are at every moment. And that is also the task of architecture. Architecture relates us with deep time, it carries uh meanings uh of uh his history and dwelling. Uh the reason why we uh all like sitting next to an open fire simply is that we have been uh sitting next to an open fire about uh depends on who who uh uh how would I say has studied this uh issue uh fifty million years. No doubt we feel good uh on our skin would sit by an open fire. Uh and besides, it's very likely that we have learned to speak, communicate, sitting next to the fire. So the fire, although it's an extern external to our bodily being, it is almost part of our bodily being because of our history. And these are the kinds of uh relationships and uh the dependencies that I think we should not forget, which tends to be the case today.

Lyssia Katan 17:48

For instance, Faye has become almost a postcard in the home, instead of being the source of uh warmth and uh together's it's unfortunate, but LED fireplaces have become more practical, less dangerous, but we forget that we've been sitting around fire for so long. Yes.

Juhani Pallasmaa 18:14

And uh of course, uh in the fire it is the warmth. That is the most powerful experience, not what it looked like looks like.

Shadows, Privacy, And Thinking Space

Lyssia Katan 18:26

It also has the elements of of light and dark, right? The shadows. I'd love to hear more about your take on shadows.

Juhani Pallasmaa 18:32

That is one thing uh our eyes are not constructed for bright light, they are constructed through evolution for varying light, and and and they are best at somewhat lower light level. But uh today's standards in offices, for instance, they are too too bright. Alvarato's famous uh Senatsalo Town Hall, which is a small community in central Finland, has very low light level, and I have realized why he has done it, to protect the privacy of uh the members of the of the uh city city council. These are country people, they are not used to be uh defend their opinions publicly. To have a bit lower level gives them more uh s a feeling of security. So with light you can have uh unexpected influences.

Lyssia Katan 19:41

You mentioned that in darkness or in unclear vision, it allows the mind to think more clearly. Is that correct?

Imagination As A Human Right

Juhani Pallasmaa 19:49

Yes, yes, it is. This is one thing brings one one other thing uh to my mind is the we are not taught at school how to think, how to uh imagine. For uh as I said earlier, imagination uh is the most important uh quality we have. That imagination makes us humans. But uh I didn't get one single uh sentence during my uh years of education through school and university about imagination. There is almost a kind of a semi-religious attitude that uh prevents us from uh thinking about trying to understand our own imagination. Our most human uh quality is no doubt our imagination.

Lyssia Katan 20:49

Why do you think that is? Why are we almost discouraged from using our imagination?

Juhani Pallasmaa 20:54

Because it has uh long and deep doubtful possibilities. It uh imagination is our most intimate uh world, and it is also our escape route for social or religious or whatever ideological troubles, identities. Imagination has been seen and is still unconsciously seen as something w which we should not we uh ought to not be permitted to use completely freely.

Lyssia Katan 21:32

Do you believe an act of defiance is using our imagination?

Juhani Pallasmaa 21:36

Yes, I easily remember situations, social situations throughout my life when I remember that imagination was sort of seen as an area that should we should be a little bit careful of.

Lyssia Katan 21:55

Due to its dangers?

Home As Memory And Safety

Juhani Pallasmaa 21:56

Some people and and cultures. tend to see see dangerous if you are not following the completely uh the closed rules of uh of the culture well this post perhaps too much uh in into uh moral uh philosophy i we can take it back to architecture if you walk into a newly built home today what tells you immediately that it was designed primarily for the eye rather than the other senses well your body bodies tells it for instance when you enter an old peasant uh house uh usually just one room main room you feel so protected so uh relaxed and uh because it supports your uh instincts whereas uh an interior designer home which follows uh the latest suggestions of uh home magazines uh does not touch on these uh essential issues at all it is a commercial world but our souls are not commercial souls so if someone listening wanted to make their home more like the first home you described how can they do that for getting the at least to sufficient degree the represent representational aspect of home and uh thinking of what home really means to me to me alone uh as a unique in individual and then I probably you get a little bit closer to the real values of of home today's homes relate us to the world of architectural fashion but not the biological and cultural reality that we carry in in our dreams uh we are historical beings as I said earlier deeply historical beings and in order to establish a place for us uh we have to uh be able to somehow uh reflect those deep mostly unconscious memories and desires how do we reflect those in our home how can someone listening do some deep research into their own childhood and in what really feels like home to them I do not understand at all why people would like to live in today's fashion because by definition tomorrow's fashion is the already different uh I think we should go beyond get beyond the notion of fashionable fashionableness in everything thinking our taste visual taste uh musical taste uh literary taste etc I think literature in one of the areas where we uh accept uh historical depth and difference easier than in in other fields what I mean is that a good architect architecture architectural place um gives us a home in very many levels and senses at the same time in physically to our senses but also mentally to our memories uh imaginatively to our dreams a home is not a functional practical thing it is a mental mental thing experience of home is recognizing a dialogue between the world and yourself and feeling comfortable about it.

Lyssia Katan 26:29

You also mentioned the feeling of home being something you recall from your childhood going back from a distance coming back from skiing and seeing the light inside the house covered in snow.

Juhani Pallasmaa 26:41

That is an example of uh the immaterial qualities in uh homeness when I lived at uh the countryside during the war years I often in the winter time returned back home uh late at night when it was already quite dark through the forest and it was also getting cold and then when I saw uh uh the light in the window of the house through the forest maybe uh half a kilometer away I was already saved uh that image of the light already holds my entire being these are things that are emotionally and experientially true and they are very important it's often uh the feel that sounds like a feeling right we've all felt it going back to a home but going back to the vision most people like you said focus on how a space looks but not really how it feels we think through our entire body and how a place feels is very deep and serious and sincere thinking thinking and home ought to feel a a place where uh all tensions disappear uh it is unfortunate if you if you have bodily and mental tensions in your own home but I would say that in a home that has been designed and decorated according to the last issue of some interior magazine uh absolutely it changes because it has nothing comment common with your own mental and background.

Touch, Edges, And Welcoming Details

Lyssia Katan 28:38

It's an interesting point because you had mentioned that truly our home we're we're naked in every sense of the word in our home that's where we really are our true selves. So when it doesn't match with who we really are is there a disconnect? Yes yes I I have written the sentence that uh home is an experience of your own naked skin simply because that's where you have the freedom and safety to feel so and with so many places in this world that we can't feel that way our home should be at least one place where we truly can so you write that architecture is experienced through the skin as much as it is through the eye for someone who is not an architect what does that mean in everyday life?

Juhani Pallasmaa 29:35

It means that the tactile sense is uh very important uh in many ways touching something is the final truth of things uh we still have that uh uh attitude so uh a place uh room or home which does not address the tactile sense uh leaves the dweller as an outsider almost by definition because we are not connected with our uh most intimate sense uh which is the skin and also the the uh how would I say origin of all our senses uh even the even vision uh uh is a further development of the originary uh skin tissue uh in in the fetus so even our eyes are part of the skin as as it is or when we look at our faces uh no there are so many uh natural things uh we we have just not not been used to accept the natural simple thing simple meaning of things and um I am always when I design I am very uh aware of uh how I finish the edges of uh tables or corners or doors because that edge can be too sharp and unin uh uninviting it can also be clumsy and ugly but when it is right it uh gives you pleasure to put your hand hand on it and I I have a a huge glass table in my office uh conference room uh which is basically a long rectangular huge plate of glass but I have round rounded it a little bit so that you experience it as a round table which means that uh all persons sitting next to it are um are of the same uh value uh and these are things that uh I believe uh a designer needs to think how uh an unknown person experienced the situation for architecture is the art of articulating the encounter of human beings with the world and each other and that can be uh polite and uh positive but it can be aggressive and uh and almost uh angry I would say so much of today's architecture is just expression of anger.

Lyssia Katan 32:54

How so exactly because it doesn't react to the uh human desire to to touch in one's imagination not necessarily touch but we touch as uh the philosopher Mira Ponti says with eyes with wisdom we touch the s the sun and the and the moon yes but we also touch the uh skyscraper in the city center and that can also be a aggressive touch or somehow positive inviting touch yes depending on what the uh builders have uh intended that's a great point i mean we all look at buildings and sometimes they're very harsh to the eye it's almost like if we touch them we'll we'll get cut yes it's it's similar to your to your uh glass table which I've seen pictures of your office it looks like a very inviting space and I actually want to ask about the door handles you have a whole series of door handles you've designed and you say a door handle is like a handshake of a building do you mind telling you a little bit more about that?

Juhani Pallasmaa 34:09

Well I just uh was in London visited the company easy a design company that produces now 20 variations of my door handles which I initially designed for my personal exhibition at Venice Biennale twenty something years ago. Door handle is uh perhaps the most subtle detail of a building in which this mediation between human touch and a building or a part of a building can can be um articulated and Alvarato was very very good at this. For instance in the National Pensions Institute in Helsinki which is of course a low basically a low uh uh grade uh social building the uh brass uh door handles are protected with a uh uh rain shelter a kind of a little umbrella uh uh on on top of the door handle so that when when you approach it will be dry and not wet in the rain.

Lyssia Katan 35:39

That's such a thoughtful element and and it's something so simple. It shows you we we forget we forget about the tactile we forget about the auditory we've we're only visual. If it looks good it is good which is often not the case at all.

Aging, Patina, Smell, And Memory

Juhani Pallasmaa 35:54

Partly the the the current problems arise from uh new materials which do not express uh duration or time at all uh we dwell both in place and time or I rather use the word du duration we we do not live in clock time but what we live in duration uh and uh our set settings should also mediate the information on on time uh also deep time historical time and one feels uh somehow activated uh when the the environment uh reflects messages uh of of history and and past human life I think it's wonderful to walk on sideways sidewalks in uh Central Europe for instance where uh millions of feet have uh made the uh sidewalk into a kind of a horizontal sculpture and when you walk on it you feel that you are putting your feet in the same places as millions of people before you these are things that give you somehow assure you of the continuity of the world uh today's world does not seem to have the possibility of or assurance of continuing tomorrow like you had mentioned it almost makes us fear continuation or aging by avoiding products with patinas or natural wear. But this we have certain we censor certain sensory experiences for instance smells are beyond a few use of perfumes is not part of our environmental language um but also age seems to become increasingly become something that we are a bit nervous about our own aging but also the aging of our towns and and and buildings aging is a natural thing in this world and aging is natural for human beings why do do not we um accept it as something that comforts rather than makes us uneasy I lived two and two and a half years in Ethiopia I uh was professor at the Heidel University and uh I realized how much their sensory world differed from from mine for instance well's being accepted as uh how would I say signs of uh certain uh natural things in in the human community.

Practicing The Senses By Attention

Lyssia Katan 39:36

First it uh felt a bit une I felt a bit uneasy but un until I learned to see that this is another uh information and another uh connection with human life and it really enriches human life you mentioned that smell is one of the senses that most powerfully brings us back to a moment or memory yes I must uh confess here that I three years ago I designed a smell for a perfume company in in New York Wow is it's public knowledge are we able to know its perfume public knowledge it was they invited ten persons to famous perfume company invited ten persons to design a new smell for an exhibition of smell smells and um when the lady called me from New York and asked whether I would be willing I said of course but then when we talked uh I said I think there are there is too much of everything in this world too many images too much noises and too much too many smells I don't want to add on uh usually the world can we uh try to make the experience that reminds one of the moment when you are on your skis in the middle of a white white snow field and there is absolutely no smell but you're open and you feel connected with the world and the lady answered yes I understand you exactly I'm from Canada and so we worked three months I think with six uh perfume chemists to create this um smelly smell that's so cool and it's such a that's such a specific experience that we can we can all relate to even just being in the cold no smell nothing after a you know a snowstorm it's a bright day and this smell of nothing hits us so I I will definitely be researching it I'm a big perfume connoisseur so I would love to smell it I'll tell you the title of the the name of the perfume Twilight it will okay I will check it out moving forward into the next decades of architecture and design do you have any practical tips that our listeners can incorporate into their lives almost immediately well I would uh again repeat that uh that architecture is fundamentally experienced it uh becomes part of us through experience and that is how architecture is internalized um so I would suggest that we would begin to uh practice uh or sensitize our our senses when I design draw on a paper I'm not at all thinking or even seeing the uh the pencil line I am touching and being in the place that I'm I'm imagining so I have tried in my through professional life to develop my senses to be active enough to give me the most important information how it is to be a human being in this very situation. How can we practice our senses to sharpen them? In the same way that we practice anything paying attention. It's really good advice because often we get distracted by everything else going on in the world and we forget to pay attention. There's too many things to pay attention

Juhani Pallasmaa 44:00

As I said I'll be ninety soon and I I will not probably uh design anything anymore. Although I just agreed that we will a small group will visit a internal piece uh in a wetland in central Finland which I designed uh two years ago for an art art exhibition, environmental art art exhibition. So what I why I'm saying this is that nowadays practicing architecture has become such a bureaucratic endeavor that my nerves cannot take it anymore. But uh I'm I'm doing everything that I I'm asked to do, whether it's a piece of environmental art or a humor or something else. Everything is the same in the final end, everything we do is the same. Um we express our internal beliefs in everything we do, and uh it it would be impossible almost to do otherwise. So being uh sincere and and uh crucius and and friendly in relation to other people probably is reflected in your work. I can uh easily uh differentiate uh an architect uh who is unfriendly from the one who is not uh through the buildings. How? Well, just uh because arrogance is something that is so common in today's uh design and architecture.

Lyssia Katan 46:02

What do you hope architecture looks like moving forward?

Juhani Pallasmaa 46:07

I have no idea, but I would rather say that I wish architecture were a bit more wise, sensitive, and and subtle than it tends to be nowadays. We know that we uh make us live more fully in this world. That's what architecture is for. It is to assist us to exist on this earth. We usually don't think of uh an architecture that way, but that's what it is.

Lyssia Katan 46:46

Juhani, thank you so much for your knowledge, for your wisdom, for your willingness to be on the show. I will forever be a big admirer of your work, and I'm so grateful that you have opened my mind and hopefully the minds of listeners and fellow readers to things that we have never been made aware of before. And I'm very grateful for everything you've added to this world for your door handles. I hope one day to go to Finland to be able to open a door with your handle on it.

Juhani Pallasmaa 47:21

Thank you for the pleasure.

Final Thanks And Listener Actions

Lyssia Katan 47:24

Thank you so much for spending this time with me on Room2think. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to follow the show, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who you think would really appreciate a more thoughtful approach to their space. You can find more Design Meets Psychology insights on social, in our community, and definitely in upcoming episodes so you can build a better life by design. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you next time.