How Childhood Designs Your Home

Your home is doing more to your mood than you think, and a lot of it has nothing to do with “good taste.” I’m joined by Amber Dunford, a mental health therapist and design psychology educator, to unpack why certain rooms feel instantly calming while others quietly put your body on edge. We trace it back to attachment theory, early childhood environments, and the way memory builds an emotional blueprint for what “safe” looks like in adulthood.

We get practical about the nervous system and the built environment. Amber explains how clutter can keep your brain scanning like it’s looking for danger, why contained clutter feels less stressful, and how the five senses belong in interior design. We talk texture as a grounding tool, why ordering samples matters, and how scent can become a powerful cue for comfort because smell and memory are processed so closely together. If you’ve ever caught a familiar fragrance and felt transported to another time, you’ll understand why “signature scent” design is more than a trend.

Then we zoom out to layout and lighting. Curves tend to read as calmer than sharp angles, and the idea of prospect and refuge helps explain why we love booths, cozy corners, and seating with a protected back. Amber shares lighting guidance that’s simple but transformative: layer your lights, warm up your bulbs, use dimmers, and prioritize natural light to support sleep, mood, and regulation. We also dig into color psychology, including when warm tones make a space feel more intimate and when cool tones can visually expand a small room.

If you care about interior design, mental health, and creating a home that actually supports you, this conversation will give you a new lens and a better starting point. Subscribe, share the show with a friend who’s redesigning their space, and leave a review so more people can find Room to Think.

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Transcript

Scent Memory And Warm Color

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Our memories get stored in the same location as sense gets processed. And so when we smell something, we can immediately be taken back to a time in our lives because it's so like closely linked in our brain. If you're in like a big space and you want to help it feel a little more intimate, use warm color.

Lyssia Katan 0:21

What are some ways that we can incorporate those five senses in our spaces?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

If one or more of the five senses can be activated, it becomes a more special memory for it. We can develop a coping strategy when we see clutter that is contained.

Lyssia Katan 0:36

Is there anything you would like to put attention to?

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Design should be fun, and if it stops being fun, that's probably when I'm call someone else in for help.

Welcome To Room To Think

Amber’s Winding Career Path

Lyssia Katan 0:44

Can you tell me a little bit more about the science behind that? Welcome to Room to Think. The way your home feels today may have more to do with your childhood than your taste. And you may not even realize it. In this episode, I'm sitting down with Amber Dunford. She's a mental health therapist and design psychology educator whose work explores how early attachment, memory, and emotion shape the spaces we feel safest in as adults. We talk about how clutter quietly raises stress hormones, why certain rooms make you feel uneasy, and how lighting, texture, layout, and unfinished faces affect your nervous system. Amber explains how our earliest environments become emotional blueprints. And she shares practical ways to create spaces that support calm and regulation, not just aesthetics. By the end of this episode, you'll understand how your childhood spaces are still shaping how you feel at home today. Let's get into it. Hi, Amber. Welcome to the show. Amber is a mental health therapist and she also teaches design. She has a class called design psychology, and I'm so excited to have her on the show. Amber, welcome to Ruffink. Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. Your career has kind of spanned a lot of different directions and industries. Can you tell me a little bit about how you went from uh design and or from therapy to design and kind of how that came to be?

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Oh my gosh, I'm so bad at timelines, but let me think here. So I started in the psychology world and I got my bachelor's degree in psychology. And along the way, kind of found this connection between like psychology, design. And I thought, oh, I really like this and I want to like figure this out. And so I went on to get like go to school for interior design, not sure what I was going to do with it. I always loved design, but didn't know like what I wanted to do truly with it. And so went through that program. And then at the end of that, I kind of realized I had to go like one track or the other. At the time, Utah just didn't have like a higher education to do design. And so I went on to get my master's degree in clinical therapy, clinical psychology, and ended up just going kind of the traditional route for a while and just seeing clients. Um, worked in some private practices, did some nonprofit work um with kiddos and therapy, and then like left that for a while and went back to sort of the more creative end of things. So my career path, like everyone says it's like they had this like timeline and mine's like a ball of yarn. Like it's hard to say. It's all over the place.

Lyssia Katan 3:25

So for listeners who may be new to your work, um, how would you describe what you do right now and why you do it?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

So, what I'm doing right now, um, which I'm very excited about, returning to the field of mental health and doing, I'm gonna start sitting with clients again. I took a little break, kind of a long break, and I'm going back now. I just feel I'm very excited in a different place in life, and I'm a mom now, and I'm just really excited to like return to that. So it's kind of full circle. I mean, everyone's talking about like this 10-year cycle that's happening right now, and um, I'm just super excited to like get back into that, it feels right. Um, so that's like a big thing that I'm doing now. And I'm teaching, um, I'm adjunct faculty at the community college, like my local college in Salt Lake. And I teach a design psychology class that I developed, oh my gosh, like 14, 15 years ago. I've been teaching it for a long time. So just adding on to it. Um, I was not planning to teach in the beginning, but it kind of fell into place. And I've been doing it ever since, and I love it. So that's kind of the two big things I'm doing. And then I'm also I take design clients on the side, just more select ones, like select projects that feel right.

Lyssia Katan 4:40

When I was researching, like great guests to have on the show, I found you. And the fact that in teach this class design psychology is incredible. I want to learn more. What made you at first you you like design, but what made you want to be like, wait a second, there's a connection between spaces and psychology.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

I think I was just like innately born with that curiosity about like human nature. And so I that sort of led me into the um psychology path and then always loved design, but never entertained it as, you know, something I was going to do full time. But then when I started like seeing how much psychology is actually in design and how like spaces impact our psyche, I just was hooked and started just reading everything I could. This was like before Instagram. It's gonna make me sound like 100 years old. But I I mean, I was like reading books, reaching out to authors, you know, just finding people's email and just learning everything I could. And I j it just felt so right and so obvious, but like I hadn't like nobody was like putting a name to it yet. Design psychology wasn't like out there in the ether like it is now. We weren't like curious about how like a color makes you feel, you know, on a deeper level, or what you know, wood grain does to your emotional state. So I just have been like studying it for years on my own and taking little classes here and there, and then just through teaching and just like educating myself as to keep the content like fresh and exciting, and there's just so many new paths that it's going. So I don't know how I like necessarily knew, it just felt right, you know?

Naming The Field Design Psychology

Lyssia Katan 6:15

Absolutely. I mean, I I'm I work in that the tile industry, and that's something that I may not have been aware of for so long, but it is something that slowly but surely we started to see that people are really, they really want to be very intentional about the tiles and the finishings they pick in their spaces. And only later did I also just like you start researching and understanding that wow, there's so much that impact us. And right now, actually, I find that a lot of the while it is trickling down, and we know that light's really important or the different colors and how they impact us. Something that I spoke to with one of the guests that I interviewed was this research is staying in academia and kind of it's it's hard to pull it to the public realm. Sometimes they're just doing the studies and they're not coming down to the real people. So do you find that this is something totally new? Or do you feel like like I feel like we're not, we haven't gotten to the point where it's become the norm? Or maybe you disagree?

SPEAKER_01 7:17

I think that's a really good point in terms of like where it is right now because you have you don't have a lot of people out there doing this work from that lens. You have scientists researching it and you have designers who are absolutely like curious and mindful of it, but maybe don't have the background in psychology to be able to like link maybe some of their instincts and and like provide education to their client about like why this is beneficial to them. So I think you're I think you're right. It would be I try to do this when I'm like with a client. I always try to layer in that psychology piece because I think it makes it more meaningful. And I, with my students, I'm telling them all the time, I was just telling them that today when I taught my class, like, here is why this is important. And if you're gonna suggest this to a client, give them that like arm them with that like underpinning of like this is why I chose this for you, because either it res it's like something you've told me about your attachment to space, or because humans in general respond well to this. And so I just think if you can make it a more meaningful experience for clients, and and it does take a little bit of therapy tools to be able to pull that out. But I do think, I mean, that's why I'm teaching this class because I do think like future designers can employ some of these techniques without like the formal psychology training. You just need to sort of understand like the foundational stuff of psychology.

Lyssia Katan 8:45

Have you had an instance where you were working with a client and there was some pushback about something you suggested in terms of like this'll psychologically not really, it's not gonna benefit you.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

No, I luckily know. What I've had more so is like when you're doing a treatment plan, I call them treatment plans. So you do it as a therapist, but you can also do it as a designer. So like there's a design treatment plan. When I have done that for clients, I found more that like it opens up floodgates more than anything. Because and we might get into this, but like we have these very early, like formative years where we attach to people, but not not just to people, but to space. And so those ages are zero to five. And so those sort of set the blueprint for how you're going to attach to people and spaces moving forward. So those sort of like you develop your ingrained preferences based on some of these early attachments, and that's so different for everyone. And people might not always understand, like, wow, I feel so good in this space, and I've never thought about why. But when you do some of the exercises that I teach about, it teaches you how to pull that out and work with it and now create a treatment plan based on the client's experiences with space. And so I more so find that people they want to like go deeper once you sort of open it up. And it is a fun line because you don't want to be doing therapy if you're not licensed. Sure. Like that line of like, yeah, um, let's find out your preferences based on your experiences, but also like I can't treat you, can't cure them.

Bringing Research To Real Clients

Lyssia Katan 10:26

Well, can you tell me a little bit more about that? Because I have read about how your so much of your early formative years impact you later in life, and even things like um the pillow forts that kids used to make, like it's a safe space. Can you tell me a little bit more about the the science behind that?

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Well, I come from the school of thought where I'm like an attachment-based therapist. Um, you can have, you know, cognitive behavioral or gestalt, like you, there's all sorts of forms of therapy that like practitioners can operate from, but mine is attachment. And so I do believe that a lot of our behaviors are driven by early attachments, um, and a lot of our preferences are. And so it would just be doing kind of a timeline of text me about where you were born up to up to now, and let's look at some of these spaces and then talk to me about some of the like adjectives you would describe, these spaces good or bad. Because that kind of gives you the bookmarks of okay, this was a positive, you know, association you have with this space versus um, okay, well, we know where the the other end of the spectrum is. We want to avoid this because it was a negative. And I think it doesn't have to be directly related. People talk about like, oh, I we family, you know, we have family vacation in the woods or at the beach. And and so you pull some of those things out, but not in a kitsch way. It's like, okay, so the waves were coming to you. What can we do to replicate that in a not like themed way? You know, is it plaster on the walls to create movement, like the waves, or is it the the colors of the sand and the ocean? So it's more like subtle nods based on like their experiences and they'll tell you. That's what I love about like working with people when you deep dive into like their past history because they'll tell you if you're off or not, or if this, you know, seems right. But it's like sort of a form of reflexive listening, like they're telling you their experiences, and then you're reflecting it back to them through a design plan.

Lyssia Katan 12:27

That's really cool. Because uh you are designing their home, and that's such an intimate thing. Can I hear about like any particular experiences you've had with clients? They're like, Well, I really loved the waves growing up, or I hated the forest or ways that you incorporated or chose not to.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, there's there's one that stands out as a like very like tender moment with someone that I did design work for, and she had how do I want to say this? It was she didn't have a lot of safe spaces in her home. And so for her, um, there were certain things that resonated for her as like these were my anchors of safety. And it was like a grandmother's house, and you know, certain things in a bedroom. And so without like exposing that too much, uh, they she let me know what were some of the things present in that space and what were some of the traditions and like sort of the little rituals that like were comforting and soothing to her. And so once we knew that, then it was like, okay, so the kitchen is a very meaningful place for you in your home. And seating in there where you were a little girl sitting on the counter while your grandmother cooked for you, like that is what you how you felt safe. And so we need to incorporate some of those same feelings. And so there was like nods to her grandmother's kitchen, um, but also making sure there was like ample seating for people so that they could now she could be the adult, sort of facilitating that for people who are coming to see her.

Lyssia Katan 14:03

That's beautiful. How can a listener take that as an example in their own home and say, okay, like can they do an audit of their kitchen, their bedroom? How do you recommend people actually use that information in their real life?

Attachment Ages Shape Space Preferences

SPEAKER_01 14:19

I think first just taking note of the spaces that you feel good in, sort of the highs and the lows, and and taking note of the surroundings. So if you find that there is this, you know, restaurant that you're like, I feel so good every time I'm there, like start looking around and taking a little inventory of what is it that you really feel drawn to. I think what so often we're like all these things are unconscious. We just feel them and move through our day, but we don't like clock them in a way of like, you know what it is? I love that they had this big drum shade over the table. And that makes me feel sort of contained. And um, or I love that they have like wood on the walls or something so warm about that. But you just feel it without sometimes like taking note of it. And so that's probably the first thing I would do is like start taking note of even in your own home, areas of your own home where you feel best in and start getting curious about why it is, or conversely, like every time I walk into this room, I feel tired or I feel depressed, or I feel unmotivated. And thinking like, okay, what is it? What are the factors in this room? What are the elements that could be contributing to that? Is it just merely like I'm bogged down and I need like some organization and I've just this visual clutter is like wearing me down? Or so um, those are just some easy ways if you're not working with someone directly that I think they could start um kind of feeling into that.

Lyssia Katan 15:48

I think that's such an important distinction because sometimes we just leave spaces as they are because that's the way they've always been. I've always had the bed over there, I've always had the couch over there, and actually being able to step in and recognize wait a second, what's not working? Do you find that everyone can do that? Or does it take a certain level of skill to be able to recognize these things?

SPEAKER_01 16:11

I mean, I think everyone's capable of, you know, making a space where they need. There's that whole like the Carl Roders, like we have this drive to like be able to like heal ourselves in some ways and and be self-actualized. Like, um, but I I do think like it's okay to like recognize like I'm stuck here because you want it to be fun. Like design should be fun, and if it stops being fun, that's probably gonna call someone else in for help, especially if you're sharing a space, then you're kind of like holding you and the people you're sharing it with in your brain, and sometimes it can be a lot. So yeah, I think everyone can do it, but I think like that's where designers come in too. So I definitely like respect like partnering with a designer.

Lyssia Katan 16:57

Was there a space in your life, past or present, that you really like got you feeling that hold on, like this space impacts me a lot more than I realized in the beginning?

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Well, I was raised with uh in my grandpa's home and thinking about like he just created so many like magical moments, like things that were like a hole in the wall became a story about a mouse that lived there. And that so, like, yeah, I think some of those early experiences I had were it might not have been the nicest space, but like the the essence of like safety and imagination and all of that was there. So that's probably like one of my earlier spaces that I was actually just telling my students today, like we associate like when we have like an ingrained memory of something, if if one of or more of the five senses can be activated, it becomes a more special memory for us. And it we like record it according to like the most dominant sense that got activated, so like smell or touch. And but if you as a designer can activate all the five senses, it makes the experience so much more rich and meaningful. And I think about like my grandfather's house and like the shag carpet and the way that felt, like on my bare skin, and my, you know, running my hands through it and like just the wood paneling and the different like bubbled glass um from that era. Like, so yeah, I I think I was just and probably some hard wiring too, that I was just like an alert kid who would cared about space, you know, just walked in with that.

Lyssia Katan 18:36

So when I think about it, like there's so many things from my grandmother's house that, like, you know, the little tassels on the rug and these things that you don't realize as a kid, but you're always just playing with, or you know, little fabric on the on the chair. What are some ways that we can incorporate those five senses in our spaces? How do designers generally do it? Like, sight is pretty clear, but what about all the others?

Mining Memories For Design Clues

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah, sight is one that I think we designers almost exclusively rely on. Probably second in line would be um touch. We're just these like tactile creatures that want to like feel our way through our environment. And touch is one that I think is a really important one to consider when you're talking about like textiles and elements and like materials that you're going to like layer into the home because touch is something, it slows us down, like it invites us to interact with the space. Um, I'm sure you understand this, like being in the tile industry, but it when something has like a handmade quality to it, we want to feel it, or if something is shiny, we want to run our hand over it, or if something, you know, has grooves in it. So it just like it helps us stay present, like in the moment when we are like if you walked into a room and every surface was the same, you know, materials all all like slick and you know, we wouldn't feel like relaxed, we wouldn't feel like the environment is pulling us in at all. Um, but so touch is one where I would say like make sure you're layering materials and you don't want too many of the same thing. And but it is nice to have like a thread throughout of something that repeats smell. I don't I don't think a lot of people like think about like scent and as far as like an experience in design. Scent is used in so many other ways for like healing and like you know creating a spa experience. So it's there in some ways, but you can really like shape um well to give you an example, our memories get stored in the same location as scent gets processed. And so when we smell something, it immediately like bumps all of that, like on the way up to being stored, it bumps all of those things and it like memories, like you kind of like jogs memories because they they're all processed and stored in the same part of the brain. And so it's the um hippocampus and the amygdala. And so when we smell something, we can immediately be taken back to a time in our life because it's so link closely linked in our brain. I'm sure you can really like smelling something and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm five again, or that's my junior high boyfriend, or whatever. You just remember, like, you know, very clearly. And so scent is a good one to like create an emotional experience um and deepen memory. So those are a few that I would say are important to lean on.

Lyssia Katan 21:35

I want to dive into these first. So yeah, you said fabrics, and I've and you said it brings us into the present. I I read, and I don't know if this is true, I'd love to ask you that when we touch things like tactile fabrics or or any kind of texture, it brings us back to our body and how many times we get to we're living in our minds, especially these days, but when we're like brought back to our body with present. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Yeah. I did um in my practice, I used to see um do trauma work with children. And one of the ways that we would help them like self-regulate was giving them something to like squeeze or touch or like that had like you know bristly things on it or just something that kind of like brought them back into their body and into the moment. Um so yeah, that is like one way that you know we we can feel more grounded is through like touch.

Lyssia Katan 22:32

So it's so fascinating because especially these days, we live in our phones, we live in our heads, we live on our computers, and we sometimes forget that we have these bodies and and yeah. I mean, I discovered this when I was couch shopping and I ended up looking at the couch and I felt that it was so rough and it was chafing against my skin. It's a beautiful couch, but I just I couldn't find myself to be comfortable. And that was kind of a lot of the inspiration behind that eventually led to the creation of the show. But it's cool to know that this is like a psychological thing and this is how people are regulate themselves.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

And I say too to my students and I practice this like you have to order samples of everything because you can have a gorgeous mock-up, you can have a line drawing of a sofa. Um, but until you get that sample in your hand and you're touching it and experiencing it, you don't know how you feel about it. And so, you know, color reads different. And so I do think that there is such value in like if you're going to suggest something, make sure that you like have the full picture of that. Um, because we do so much like rendering and so much time goes into like selling the piece, you know, like okay, here's what it's gonna look like, here's the mock-up, here's the individual pieces, but like touch it. You also need to get it in your hand, put it against the space that it's going in. I I have a ton of tile in my in a little coffee nook that we're working on right now, and just like it's live. You need to see how it interacts with the wood grain or with the light. And yeah, it's very important.

Lyssia Katan 24:12

I believe in that because I mean I I see that not in design, but in shopping. I it's really hard for me to shop online because I don't know what the fabrics feel like. And I want to know if it's on my skin, it's itchy or it's it's it's irritating. So many times we forget about that for our home.

Using Touch To Feel Grounded

SPEAKER_01 24:29

You know, it's funny too. Um, so next in line, so color is like the most subjective for most people. Like it's the first thing that we respond to when we view um an object is like the first thing we take in is the color. So that's above like shape, texture, um scale, any of that. And then next in line would be um the feel of it. And so it definitely people have like some people are like no velvet, and some people are like, give me a suit. And yeah. So we we have strong opinions about that. And I think it is important to like make sure that you're um checking that out for yourself and for a client.

Lyssia Katan 25:10

Yeah, especially in these days where we're becoming more aware of people, like you've probably heard this word, but when people are overstimulated, whether in an environment or in a space or in a concert, or we the so it's the lighting, it's the fabric, it's the music, it's so many things at once. And I want to talk about smell, is because we've all been in a time where we smell something and it smells like grandma's cookies growing up, or it smells like the street we lived on, the flowers. How can we incorporate smell into our home in a way that helps us? Like, do are those diffusers and scent things are they good for us or are they net negative with all like what's I mean from a biological standpoint, not sure how good they are.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Okay, but the association is definitely strong. So if you like scentscape your house and you have like the signature scent for your house, hotels do this too. They like this is our hotel smell. You do start to feel comforted by that if home is a place that is welcoming to you and you feel safe when you're there, and yeah, so you start to just the second you smell that. Um, there's this term called entrainment too. We do it with like you you can hear the first beat of a song, and immediately your body, if it's a song you love, you just immediately go into the mode of like whether it's relaxation or dance or excitement or whatever. So we you've trained your body to sort of follow suit. And so smelling things is the same. So if you if home is like a peaceful, calming, fun space for you to be, and then you have that scent link to it, it's it's definitely like creating those like stronger ties and memories for you. But then you can be more strategic too. Like things like peppermint, um, like citrusy smells, they're a bit more like invigorating. And so we tend to feel a little more like action-oriented around those. And so they would be good to like have in a gym if you have a home gym or if you're going to the gym to put that on, versus like something like a lavender sedates your central nervous system. And so that's going to kind of constrict your muscles, like make you feel ready for sleep. Something like jasmine gives you a deeper sleep. And so you can kind of play with different scent combinations. Um, one of the better ones is lemon, like a citrus with a lavender. And I don't know exactly, maybe you're drinking lemon water and you have sit, you know, lavender in the air. But that um calms the body but keeps the brain alert. So it's that nice combination of like for work, for school, that you're like getting a little bit of both. So you it's the ideal thing. You don't want to be like fight or flight. You want your body calm, but you want your brain alert.

Lyssia Katan 27:56

So and that doesn't like they don't they don't cancel each other out because the lemon invigorating and lavender calming, they actually work together.

Scent Science And Signature Smells

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Not that I've studied, not that I know. So they they tend to, yeah, the the lavender sedates the central nervous system, and then the the um citrus is like zing. So I don't I haven't read that they do, but yeah.

Lyssia Katan 28:18

Wow, businesses do this really well. There's there's just a coffee shop in Miami called Pyravita, and every single location, and I love it, every single location has the same smell. Whenever I'm like walking around somewhere and I even like get a whiff of that, I'm like, there's there's a Pira Vita somewhere. Like I'm suddenly hungry, like I'm suddenly craving a smoothie, but like they do it so well. They have us trained, like they just know it's it's smart, it's good marketing. It really is. They like pump it out onto the streets. So when someone walks into a room and they immediately feel uneasy or some or calm, really, what are some elements that can be the uh perpetrators? Yeah, is that the right word? I think so. Yeah, like the culprit. Yeah, the culprit. There we go. What are some elements that could be the culprit for that?

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Well, so there's like subjective stuff that might be hard to answer because it could be based on your history with space. So if you're like in a space where you're like, oh, I felt like kind of threatened in a space similar, then you're obviously going to like respond accordingly when you're in a similar space. It's like doesn't have to be the same thing, it just has to be in the ballpark of that thing. But generally speaking, rooms that have like curves to them, so curved architecture, curved elements, curved furniture, even curved artwork. We rate those as being more calm and serene. We also rate them as being more quiet, um, regardless of the actual sound that is happening in them, versus like more like spaces that meet at like 90 degree angles, those are rated as um a little more like serious, a little more structured, a little more noisy even. So that could be contributing, I think. Lighting is a big one. If things feel too kind of clinical and there is no like warm layered lighting, we tend to like be a little more on edge if all the furniture is sort of pushed to the perimeter that can make us feel anxious. Like too much open space can make us feel anxious. There's this um cool thing called prospect and refuge. And it's basically like we like being underneath like a lower ceiling, dim light, just like our animal instincts, like goes back to like our sort of survival skills, like our ancestral instincts with space, because we're protected in that space, right? Like we're like, okay, I'm a little mouse, I've got coverage, but I like to be able to see out to all of the prospects if I had to run. Like, where am I running to? And we like to see that same view like reflected back at us. So, like, oh, I'm safe. If I have to run, I'll go here and then I'll end up here. So we like that like reflected back at us. So we like seeing that in a space as well. So we like rooms that have like little niches with like lower ceilings in some areas that open up to um bigger spaces. And so we might be able to kind of customize where we want to be according to our comfort level in a space if the architecture supports that.

Lyssia Katan 31:19

That's cool. Um, we had John Sofio, he's designed a bunch of restaurants and clubs on the podcast. And he said he specifically designs like restaurants if there's booths along the wall or restaurant, like um seating along the wall, to be those like private tables. The ceiling is lower, so people feel more intimate, but they can still see out. It's like they're private, but they're public. It's perfect.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

That's exactly prospect and refuge that I'm talking about. It's also sort of Frank Lloyd, right? You know, that high low. We like that in a space. We don't like one note. Um, I've restaurant design is so interesting to me because that's a space where we like having like a protected back usually because we like so he probably knows this, though, like the table seats floating in the center of the restaurant are like the last ones to get picked. Or like, oh, can we sit here instead? We feel safer when we have that protected back and then we have the vantage point out. It's sort of just back to like these dormant survival skills. We don't need them anymore to survive, but like we still have like these preferences that are ingrained because of it.

Lyssia Katan 32:25

Is it true that having the sofa against a wall or some kind of table? So you're not just like floating, you don't have like empty space behind you. Is that also that's also a thing?

Curves Layout And Prospect Refuge

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah, like a little like console table behind a sofa, or yeah, I I do. I think, especially in a big space, I think that helps. Anchoring a space visually is helpful. So, like sometimes people will do like a giant 84-inch sofa, and then they get like a tiny eight by ten rug to go with it or five by seven rug, and you're like, no, like make it as big bigger than the space, you know, you probably need like 10 by 12, 10 by 14.

Lyssia Katan 33:00

Does having the rug create that like separation from the rest of the room? Like, is that what anchors it or is it the sofa that just happens to need a?

SPEAKER_01 33:11

I think I always start with the rug for the most part when I'm thinking about a living room and like making sure that like it's big enough for the space, it will fill off if not, but also like that like psychological grounding of like this is the territory. There's so like I'm in an open floor plan, which you know, love hate, because it's like you have to work extra hard to like define zones in some ways. And so I think like anchoring it with a rug is important. I love too the idea of like treating a ceiling as the fifth wall where you're treating like is it beams, is it wood clad? Is it paint? Is it like something? Is it tile on the ceiling? Like, what is it that you are doing that is like you because you can not only like anchor it from below, you can anchor it like from the top as well. And so thinking about anchoring a space from either, I kind of love the idea of flipping that on its head. Like in nature, we we like like if you think about if you look out on a hill, it's usually like the deeper, more vegetable, like earthy colors on the landscape, like on the hill, and then as a gradient, you know, gets a little lighter as you get up to the sky. So we orient ourselves to the world based on like that sort of order in nature. And I think a lot of people design to that, but it's fun when you flip that upside down and you think like, no, I'm going darker on the ceiling and like lighter below.

Lyssia Katan 34:39

Have you done that where you painted the ceiling a darker color or you did some kind of treatment and it ground does it ground the space or it grounds the room?

SPEAKER_01 34:47

I think it can visually bring it down and create more intimacy. In our basement, we did like walnut beams on the ceiling, and it did bring it down in a really cool way. And now I'm like, I want a wallpaper between those or go dark because that's where we hang out. That's where like our fireplace is and we watch movies, and the bar is we don't have like a big bar, but like you know, a little niche for a bar is down there. So thinking about like the things we do down there, it makes sense to kind of like bring the ceiling down visually a bit.

Lyssia Katan 35:15

It also gives you that pillow fort feeling where you're like protected. It's like your space. I I actually never realized the pillow forts were so important until I read this.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

I love that I think about that for my son a lot. He always wants, like, Mom, can I make a tent or make a four? Or the kids love being in that little like space where it could just be a blanket draped over a chair and they'll spend like all day in there. Like, but we like that too. We like that feeling of like, you know, protection, having like a protected head, like covering. Wow. It's it's cool.

Lyssia Katan 35:48

It's it's the things that we don't the things that we just don't realize impact us. Are there some subtle but common mistakes that people make in their homes that just don't help them out at all?

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Hmm. I think people, well, there's two things. I think people hang their art too high generally. Okay. It should be around eye level. Okay. Um, like the top should be at eye level or no, just like as you're standing back, it should maybe a little, a little above eye level, but I think people always hold it too high. And then lighting, I think people underestimate the importance of lighting. It's probably the thing I say like the most is like get a layered lighting scheme. So don't just rely on the overhead lighting. Put those on dimmers if you can, because that's great because you can adjust, you know, depending on the time of day. And then don't forget about floor lamps, sconces, tabletop lighting, like and those lights, like the cool, warm, the Kelvin scale, those should not compete. So you want to be around like 2700 Kelvin. That's like the how warm a light is. I think so many times people are going too cool in a space, and it can feel like clinical, it can feel like not welcoming. But think about like then the light we see in nature. It's like this warm, you know, light. And so we like to like be around that. Fire, warm, such a source of like life for us, like, you know, to survive, we needed it. And so it's just like more comforting to be around that than it is like a cool light.

Lyssia Katan 37:21

Right, especially different times of day, like morning light or evening light, and how that impacts our circadian rhythm.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that there's big like that's like white casinos or different places where they deprived the light that you're like, what day is it? How long have I been in here? So it's definitely like that's by design, because then once you're deprived from natural light, then you lose track of like time and space.

Lyssia Katan 37:47

How else does it impact you when you're deprived of natural light?

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Obviously, it messes up your sleep and wake cycles. Um, so that's a big one. And that when you're not sleeping, you're prone to anxiety, to irritability. It's um difficult to like get on a cadence just for like life. We do like being in sort of like a dappled light situation, so like fractured light that would like break through the trees. Um, we like that kind of lighting. Um, yeah, I mean, it it regulates our mood, it regulates our emotions. If you're feeling like stressed, it's nice to like go for a walk, not just for the like oxygen, but also to be in some natural light. Um that it can really throw you, it throws your appetite, it throws your sleep. You know, lacking that.

Lyssia Katan 38:34

Especially if you're working in a cubicle or a place that really doesn't have much natural light. Or in a casino, right? Not much natural light. I constantly confused. That'd be hard. That'd be hard. So what about different rooms? For example, like, do you have any tips for the bedroom? For example, like proper sleep, right? Lighting, definitely shutting shutting off the light, yeah, like the blinds at night. But how about other other tips that can be used in a bedroom?

Lighting Errors And Natural Light

SPEAKER_01 39:02

I mean, I would say like have good sleep hygiene in terms of like getting routines. Um, after I think it's like seven days of doing something, you just it becomes habitual. And so if you have a sleep routine, uh the second you sort of enter your bedroom and start to do that routine, whether it's like, you know, I brush my teeth, I do this, my slippers are there, I pull this cover over, I din the lights, I read for a minute, like whatever it is for you, just stick to that. And usually it helps you kind of get in the your body will start just automatically like starting to feel like, okay, it's time for bed. It's like resetting yourself. I would say like limiting light as so whether that's like blackout shades or something that can you can adjust so that you aren't just like exposed to like street lights, or you can limit the sound to like sleep with a lot of people sleep with like a sound machine. I know we do, but just sort of like making it a little woman for sleep. Um, a lot of people do too many different things in their like they're like, oh, I work in bed on my laptop, um, I snack in there, you know, just keeping it like this this is for sleep, you know, everything else happens away from here.

Lyssia Katan 40:20

Right. It that helps when people try to combine their office and their bedroom. And sometimes it's not possible, but oh, I've done it.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

I lived in a studio apartment and like everything.

Lyssia Katan 40:29

It was like hey, dinner on the bed, work on the bed. But then when it's time to actually go to sleep, you can't fall asleep because you were just working.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

That's verify, yeah.

Lyssia Katan 40:40

So we really said it takes seven days. Is that how long it takes for us to teach our body like this is what we're doing in this space?

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Okay, that's promising.

Lyssia Katan 40:51

Yeah, shorter than what is it, 21 days to break a hot habit? So it's I could be wrong about that, but I think seven days to form a form a good one. When creating a space for emotional regulation, how can people uh think about color and objects and visual clutter is more than just style, but for their own well-being? Like, like you have a blank slate. Where do you start and how can you start layering upwards?

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Well, just on the visual clutter, like we spend a lot of time assessing clutter. Um, it's I mean, imagine kind of like dates back to like those like survival skills. Like if you were scanning the woods, it's difficult to like know if danger's coming. So we tend to spend like a lot more time than necessary, like checking out like a pile of cords or um, you know, toys that are overflowing out of something. So it's sort of just like we scan it, we come back to it just to see if anything like changed, likely that nothing did, but your brain is just trained to like constantly assess for danger in those ways. And so limiting clutter is very important because that can be a mental strain. It's very hard to live around like a lot of clutter. And people will repeat like clutter because it's comforting in a way, they grew up with it, and so they're just doing what they knew, what they were raised with, but don't ever stop to think like, oh wow, the you know, this is impacting my mental health negatively. So, um, so limiting clutter if you can and keep it easy. Don't do something that you're like is going to be complicated. Like you have to fold something in the exact right size to get it to fit. And you're like, if it's a basket, it's a basket, you know, dumb. But like we can develop a coping strategy when we see clutter that is contained. It's when clutter feels overflowing and taking over areas that that's when we start to feel like the stress um hormone gets released. So that's a big one. Um colors are also very important to consider. Like if you're in like a big space and you want to help it feel a little more intimate, like it feels too big, use warm colors, like on the warm side of the color wheel, because those psychologically adva advanced, they move towards us. And so they can make a space feel a little more intimate and cozy. Versus if you're in a small space and you want to make it feel bigger, lean into like the cooler colors. Those are gonna push away from us um psychologically. And so there's some tricks that you can do with color for spaces too. Like the reds, the oranges, the yellows, those are more of the warm cotton, all of those like warm colors, they feel closer to us psychologically.

Lyssia Katan 43:44

I'm curious if in the Mediterranean they have a lot of terracotta, they have these warm colors. Does that have any connection to like us feeling, or even the people, right? The people in the Mediterranean are a lot warmer than the people in Russia. Is there any kind of connection? Or is that totally off?

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Not that I know of, but I love thinking how about that? That is really interesting. I don't know. I know. Um, it could be like the wavelengths of the color, too. I'm not exactly sure, but I mean, it just we rate things as being closer to us, like in proximity when they're warmer, when they're like high. So even whites, I tell people like you can still do a neutral room or a white room, but it can be warm. Um, so just like paying attention to the undertones of something too.

Lyssia Katan 44:30

And going back to clutter for a second, I heard that sometimes clutter or courting can come from scarcity mentality. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 44:41

It falls under sort of the anxiety umbrella. And so a lot of times it is a coping mechanism for people that are experiencing anxiety. Sometimes like an event can trigger that and it sort of causes them to become insular and and sort of like the stuff starts being symbolic for the grief or for the anxiety. And so having all of that around, even though they don't need it and and wouldn't know if something disappeared, it's sort of the idea of it, it's more symbolic than it is anything.

Lyssia Katan 45:13

So do you find that like people hoard it's like a type of coping mechanism?

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Uh a lot of times I haven't directly worked with um people who are experiencing like going through hoarding. A lot of times it is is very anxiety provoking if you were to say like hold something up and say, like, we need to get rid of this. Is that okay? They've attached meaning to everything and it's it's not like a direct correlation. It's usually like something about like, you know, I lost my parent and I'm having a hard time like letting this go because I have this unresolved grief and I've attached it to this, you know, these things that I'm bringing in and buying into the house. And so yeah, I don't have a ton of experience there, but I know it is kind of in that umbrella.

Bedroom Habits For Better Sleep

Lyssia Katan 46:02

Do you find that people are often like create their space with things that they are attached to subconsciously they don't realize it?

SPEAKER_01 46:10

Well, that's one thing that I love about design psychology. And when you kind of work with clients with that in mind, you're helping them attach meaning. So that would be the goal. Like, is this a 10? You know, is this thing bringing value to your life? Is it does it have a meaning? Have you attached meaning to it? Because a lot of people you'll say, like, if you had to flee your house and you had to grab a few things, what would you grab? And sometimes they'll say something that is not even being honored or displayed. It's like, you know, in the basement in a cabinet that it means something, but yet they're not like displaying it or, you know, giving it that time. And so I think sometimes it's like, well, let's figure out how we can like make that special for you. Is it if it's a quilt, then are we hanging it on a wall? Are we bringing it out? Are we refinishing this thing that like your grandfather made that you're holding on to because it's so important? But you know, it's not being honored or it's not like being part of your everyday use. And I think that sometimes that is just as powerful as like letting something go, as like figuring out how to honor it.

Lyssia Katan 47:18

Yeah, that is powerful because so many things, like you said, super valuable things, maybe photo albums or quilts are just in the basement in a box somewhere. I know. I mean, I'm guilty of that too. We all are. How do you suggest that people honor those types of things? Like you said, hanging on the wall, that's a suggestion. How else have you helped clients honor these things that are really special to them and mean something and they want in their space?

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Well, I think asking the questions about telling me some of the most like, you know, invaluable pieces in your space, um, and what do they mean to you? I think once they can externalize the meaning, um, that's important. Then you know how to honor it. Sometimes it's like just a good exercise in like decluttering, like just okay, everything can't have like meaning if it's impacting your life negatively. So sometimes it's just, you know, let's walk through some of these things and decide like what gets your attention, what is it that gets the display, or what is it that maybe this one isn't, you know. We repeat things, like we're like when we move into a new place, we're like a little hermit crab. We just like set up shops, sometimes put the same stuff back out in the same way that we had it in the old place. But I think it's always a nice exercise to be like, okay, let's actually like get critical about this and start like critically thinking about like, do I want this thing that I've been toting around from house to house to house? Does it still hold meaning for me? Why do we do that? Oh, attachment. I mean, I think, and also like it our stuff becomes an extension of ourself. Kids do this a lot with toys, and you know, everything is like, no, I I need this. And it's like, you're like, this is pushed off top to an applesauce. Like, but like no, it's like everything like is super meaningful, but we do that too. We're like big kids. We just like like, oh, what if I need that again? Or oh, I especially if it has like any sentimental value, like you got it in a certain time in your life. It's hard to part with that, even if it's like not serving you anymore or doesn't represent you anymore. Um, it's still a piece of you in a lot of ways.

Lyssia Katan 49:27

You say we attach meaty to a lot of things. Is there a way to detach from these things if we're having a hard time letting something go?

Clutter Containment And Stress Hormones

SPEAKER_01 49:34

I would get curious more about like what it is that feels like you need to hold on to this. I mean, that's with a lot of things. That's with like about habit. That's with continuing to be with someone who's not healthy for you. Like, that's with holding on to stuff that you're like, this doesn't represent me anymore. I just think just getting curious about what it is, and and hopefully you could get to that like on your own of like, what does this represent to me? Sometimes, like doing like the what is this? What does it represent to me? Where am I now? And kind of like, you know, testing that against itself is helpful to determine if it's like something that you want to continue holding on to. It's tough though, and sometimes people need a long goodbye. So sometimes people just they're not ready. And but it's like there's stages of change, and sometimes people need to like stay in like pre-contemplation stage for a long time before they're ready to part with something. And um, some people worry about having regret. So it's tough, it's different for everyone. But I I think just like asking yourself, it's not about the thing, it's not about the candlestick or the you know, old beat up chair, it's about the meaning that it holds. And so just making sure that you can say what is the meaning I'm attaching to this.

Lyssia Katan 50:55

Interesting. Cause I find that things that have no meaning to me, I have no problem getting rid of. Like if it's like a thrifted piece of something, like, no problem. But if it's like a pass down thing, that's like going in the box, it's gonna be stored for who knows how long until I forget about it. Really? Yeah, but it would be too painful to not exactly like knowing. Exactly. The attachment thing is so fascinating because we don't realize attachment is so cool. Yeah, can you tell me more about attachment? Like, why did you pick attachment to go into?

Color Tricks For Cozy Or Spacious

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Oh, I just think it made sense to me that like we have these like caregivers and spaces that hold us as we're like growing, and then we're just sort of like out in the world, and we reference back to that about like how that went. That's like our blueprint for life. Like you're able to like form healthy attachments if you got modeled, you know, a healthy attachment. Like, was your caregiver like appropriately like responding to your needs when you got hurt? Were they attentive? Were they nurturing? Were they, you know, appropriately like pushing you to like do something that was maybe hard, but like modeling that like they believe in you? Or did you have a caregiver that was maybe like dismissive of your needs or you know, abandoned you in some form or another? And I just think it's so fascinating that we like pack all that up and carry it with us throughout our life. And then the second we go to attach to another person, we just dump it all out, and that's like our blueprint for like, okay, well, this is how I attached to you. I have to be very anxious and constantly worried about our standing because I had abandonment, or you know, or or can I like separate in a healthy way from people and not make it about like it's not maybe about me? It's you know, like this is just life and this is how people like come together and and come apart, like those sort of like reuniting with a caregiver, separating all of those like different dances that we did with our caregivers are like so crucial to like how we then attach to people and space as adults. So if you had like, I give this example of like an anxious attachment style, like this might be someone who they kind of give you like this, like this push-pull, you know, get closer, stay back. And that's a survival instinct because they want that closeness, they want that stability in their home. But once they get it, it's uncomfortable for them and they don't quite know what to do with it. So these are people like an example I always give is like they might lean R against the wall for years and never hang it, or they might have like boxes that are still like waiting to be unpacked, but they've lived in the home for years. They're just like there's something about like not bully, like setting roots because the roots are uncomfortable, even though there is something in them that's like driving them to know that that is a good thing to seek out and to want it, but like they're not sure it will stay stable and be there for them because oftentimes maybe their early environment wasn't.

Lyssia Katan 54:08

Wow, that explains so much. I have friends who have like mirrors like leaning up, like mirrors that you hang leaning up on their wall for just months and months and months. Like I've hung four pieces of artwork in the time that they're still considering where to hang the mirror, and it's it's that one it could be indecisive.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Okay, I mean it could just be like parallel and making the wrong choice. But it's for some people, it really is. Or these people might also start to like find things wrong and like nitpick where they are because it's like, well, I'm gonna leave it before it leaves me to some, you know, like the house is it was great and now it feels unsuitable in a lot of ways. And it's like, or are you protecting yourself because you are comfortable here to some degree and it would be devastating if this didn't work out?

Lyssia Katan 55:03

Wow. Like the the people who find something wrong in every house, like there's noise here, there's like a bird outside. There's always something wrong. So there was always moving, always something.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

Wow, yeah, yeah. And if you fixate on that, sometimes it's more of a protective skill that you're just like bracing yourself for disappointment versus, you know, this is actually a problem, all stemming from the way you grew up, really. A lot, I mean, that's what I believe. That's sort of my school of thought. That like not everything, you know, obviously is traced back, but I do like to start there for sure. So I would I do like to get a comprehensive like history of someone's experiences with their caregiver and their home.

Lyssia Katan 55:42

And when you start working with them for design work, is that how it starts?

Honoring Keepsakes Without Hoarding

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Both for therapy and for design. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think you have to be a little more careful when you're doing design work because you can't uncover something that maybe is you you just don't want to, you kind of have to keep it a little more surface, but like, yeah, I think it's still important to to talk through some of that stuff. And if a client is open to it, I mean, not everyone, I tell my students all the time, like some of this is gonna be like too woo-woo for people, and they may not respond to it. But there's certain little exercises that might be great for them, like this, you know, talking about their objects in their home, if they're struggling with clutter or um talking about like their time life, if they moved around a lot, especially like let's talk about some of these like meaningful places in your life, or yeah, what what stands out and what do we want to avoid? That's also helpful.

Lyssia Katan 56:36

So if listeners could take something away, just take one thing away from this episode, what would you want it to be?

SPEAKER_01 56:44

I would say think about your think about your own timeline and think about what spaces stood out for you as being meaningful. They could be like vacation spaces that you visited, or primarily it's like places that you've lived or places that felt like they hold meaning for you. And like see if there's anything in there that like you could pull out like similarities. Is there anything that you're like, oh, that's so interesting? Turns out when I'm in a space that like has, you know, big picture windows and natural light, like, I mean, most of us are gonna feel good in that space, but like if you realize like, wow, that has been present in all these homes I felt really good in, or like this was painted a very dark color in all of these rooms that I'm like felt like, you know, I felt anxious in, or I felt like this were places that I just wasn't like my best in. And then you can, I mean, it's just sort of recognizing patterns, recognizing things that you respond well to, the things that you're like not for me. Because once you have that down, it's a lot easier to work with as yourself or as a designer. Because then you start to see themes emerge and you can say, like, oh wow, turns out I really like um this kind of material, or I really like when you know I'm in a neighborhood full of trees or whatever it is. Um, and then you can kind of retrofit it into your design.

Attachment Styles In Unfinished Homes

Lyssia Katan 58:12

What I'm thinking about people in my life or that even my design taste, and certain things come out that I'm like, wow, I really love that, and I don't know why. And now I'm I'm making a connection. Like I love like the Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, Morocco, like Turkish, like all these rugs. And like my mom comes into my house, she's like, What are you doing with these rugs? But like my mom grew up in Turkey and Istanbul, and so she's had these rugs all the time, and it's it's not special to her, but for me, I'm like, whoa, I want these Turkish rugs and I want all these patterns. Interesting. So you grew up with those in your house? Yeah, we grew up with uh all kinds of like rugs and Turkish elements in my home and Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, like a huge Middle Eastern impact. And so I find that in my home I try to replicate those by having these like tassels and like carpets and that have that Mediterranean Middle Eastern feel. And it's just it's funny though the reactions that I get from friends or from family, they're like, oh, that's an interesting style. But like, like I have one of these, it's like a Moroccan lamp. Like I I have them all over. And like I didn't grow up in Morocco. I love Morocco, but like it's just interesting, these things that we pull out.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

There is a whole theory that like you get passed down like these generational like instincts to either like be drawn to something or to be afraid of something or to be, you know, um I feel like I want a garden, even though I'm never, you know, like things, things that maybe you don't know why, but there is a thing it's called like epigenetics, where it's like it's these ingrained in you based on nothing you've directly experienced, but like from your like ancestral past that is like passed down and and it show it's like a way that your genes express themselves, basically. It's not like altering them, but it's like how they express, um, which I think is a very interesting thought.

Lyssia Katan 1:00:19

It's funny because when I think of epigenetics, I always think of generational trauma, but we don't think about like generational pleasure. Like we don't think of the things that like we really loved, or like maybe were passed down to us because of some some you know, some positive effect.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

Yeah, like different types of structures that we just were like, I don't know, I instinctually feel safe in this type of structure or this type of architecture, and that could be passed down from you know, stories or pictures or just something in your body.

Lyssia Katan 1:00:49

Wow. I love thinking I love that. Just architecture and like our homes go so much deeper than we realize. Like I know everything is there for a reason, even if we're not conscious of it. How do you see the field of design psychology shifting and evolving for the better? Where do you hope it goes in the, you know, in the next 10, 20 years, knowing everything that you know about design psychology?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

I mean, I think it will start trickling out. There's now like neuroaesthetics as its own like division, and people are going into this field who are also architects and are going to be creating future buildings. And so I think from the ground up, we might start seeing people like designing with this in mind versus just like coming in and doing like the furnishings. And I think we might start to see it like on a bigger scale of people thinking about spaces in this way. Um, I think probably it'll like find its way into like there's always been psychology and marketing, but I think, you know, maybe if we have like more experiential design, um, if we want to like maybe get away, get off of our phones and we want to have more of an experiential design, I think we're gonna you'll see more of that find its way into that world as well.

Epigenetics Neuroaesthetics And What’s Next

Lyssia Katan 1:02:12

And recognizing like the why rather than like what it looks like, what look rather than the what, the why. Yeah, exactly. And how do you find your because you're teaching students all the time, how do you respond? How do you see their response to this? Is it something are they interior design students? Are they psychology students? And are they embracing this in their work?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

I get a mix of both. And not to like sound braggy, but I get people telling me all the time that they're like, I loved your class, it was my favorite class. I keep in touch with students like years later. I was just emailing one um the other day who's gone on to get her PhD because she just loved the field so much. So um, yeah, I think they're excited. I think this is so universal that like even I get psychology students who just find this fascinating that they don't, they don't have any intention of going on to do design. But I tell them all the time, like, there is a world of different things that you can do. You could be a consultant and you're not the designer, you're just consulting, or there's all kinds of like paths that you can go what no matter which one you're into. And so I think there's a ton of excitement around it. I always have a wait list for my class. So now you're gonna have an even bigger wait list.

Lyssia Katan 1:03:28

I don't know if you offer digital classes, but you will have a bigger wait list.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

I do um every now and then I'll do like online like little seminars, like a 60-minute condensed version of my class. Um, yeah.

Lyssia Katan 1:03:40

So where can listeners find you? Like, is it through your website, through your social media?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

How can they amber dunforddesigns.com? I have an Instagram, everything is linked there. I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram. Yeah. So, and I that's where I'll probably advertise if I do another, like if I host another online class.

Where To Find Amber Farewell

Lyssia Katan 1:03:59

I will, I would love to be in it. So add my name to that wait list. Amber, you've been so amazing to chat with. I really appreciate your time and your knowledge and all these cool things you shared with us and our listeners today. Is there anything you would like to put attention to in the next couple months as we uh as we share this?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

Good question. I don't know. I mean, I think creating welcoming spaces. There's a lot of spaces that maybe, you know, open whether that's your home, your business, like just creating a space that everyone feels like they want to come spend time in. And I don't know that's not always possible, like to have a brick and mortar, but like whether that's like I don't know, just like creating spaces to bring people together.

Lyssia Katan 1:04:51

Thank you so much, Amber. I really appreciate your time. And uh, and our listeners are gonna be so excited to hear this. But thank you for your time on the show. You're so welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending this time with me on Broom2think. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to follow the show, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who you think would really appreciate a more thoughtful approach to their space. You can find more design meets psychology insights on social, in our community, and definitely in upcoming episodes, so you can build a better life by design. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you next time.