Room to Think

When Design Becomes The Problem

• Lyssia Katan • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Ever wonder why a room that photographs beautifully feels stressful to sit in? We dig into the science with Dr. Anja Jamrozik, an environmental psychologist turned product leader, to reveal how light, noise, temperature, faces in view, and even app layouts quietly steer your focus, memory, and stress. The big shift: your brain treats physical and digital spaces as environments, and environments train behavior.

We trace Dr. Anja’s path from cognitive neuroscience to running living lab experiments that tweaked lighting, temperature, and noise—then uncovered a wild effect: when those were off, people swore air quality was worse, even when sensors proved it hadn’t changed. That holistic judgment explains common design fails, from echoey glass partitions and “watched” feelings in open plans to dark contrast corners no one uses. The fix is empathy and intention: design for the activity, not the rendering. Shield sightlines for deep work, tame acoustics, and make beauty serve function.

Then we take those lessons into software. Switching tabs is a digital doorway that wipes working memory. We break down how to keep critical info in context, structure comparisons side by side, and weave in biophilic cues—subtle motion, natural textures, and seasonal color shifts—to restore attention. Control matters too: let people shape their digital “rooms” the way they move furniture at home.

We also explore the pull of handmade work. Evidence shows people value handmade objects more and feel more competent when they make things—if the outcome lasts. In an AI-saturated world, the human signature, with all its variation and patina, may matter more than ever. Along the way, Dr. Anja offers one high-impact move you can try this week: work by a window with a view to boost working memory and inhibition. Add a plant, soften sound, and run a five-minute meta-check: what rose to awareness is your data.

If this sparked ideas, help others find it—follow the show, subscribe, and leave a quick review. Share it with someone who craves a calmer home office or a more humane app. Your space can teach your brain to focus; let’s design it to help.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

If you designed for everybody, you designed for nobody. When I was doing research, we were changing the temperature, the light, and the noise in a space. And when those three factors were uncomfortable, people also thought the air quality and the air circulation was bad. That's fascinating. People get really distracted by having faces around them. So if you are trying to concentrate and there's like a face in front of you, that can be really distracting.

Lyssia Katan:

How would a designer be able to incorporate all of these elements into their designs?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Even though you're in like a larger space, if you're on your phone or in your computer, your attention is in the digital environment. A space can look beautiful but be actually really hard to inhabit because of Welcome to Room to Think.

Lyssia Katan:

If you've ever sat in a beautiful room and still felt distracted, uncomfortable, or oddly on edge, this episode explains exactly why. I'm sitting down with Dr. Anya Yamrozic, and she's done some of the most fascinating research on how our environments, both physical and digital, quietly shape our focus, memory, stress levels, and decision making. We also talk about digital spaces as environments, why switching tabs makes you forget what you were doing, how apps create cognitive friction, and what designers get wrong when they optimize for visuals instead of for humans. And most importantly, Dr. Anya shares simple changes you can make this week. No renovation, no budget needed, just things that make your home or your workspace calmer, clearer, and easier to think in. By the end of this conversation, you'll stop asking, what's wrong with me? And instead, you'll start asking, what is a space asking my brain to do? Let's get into it. Dr. Anya Yamrazic, it is an absolute honor having you on the show. Welcome to Room to Think. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk to you today. Yeah, I'm so honored you're here. Dr. Anya is an environmental psychologist whose research explores how physical environments shape behavior, decision making, and well-being. Today, she brings that lens into the digital space as a product leader, applying evidence-based design principles to how people think, feel, and act inside digital products and systems. So happy to have you, happy to talk to you for a little bit about your work, past and present. For listeners who may be new to your work, how do you describe your career path from cognitive psychology and environmental research to leading digital product teams today?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Yeah, thank you so much for the kind intro. Yeah. I think my career path looks a bit meandering close up, but it makes more sense when you zoom out. So I am a cognitive scientist by training. Um, I did a PhD in cognitive psychology at Northwestern and then a postdoc in cognitive neuroscience at Penn. Um, and I've always been interested in physical spaces, objects, design. It was just something that I was interested in ever since I was a kid. And as I got kind of close to the end of my postdoc, I was thinking that I would love for my work to be more applied because we have all of this beautiful cognoscience work that gets done, but it is rarely applied into the world. And so I was talking to a friend and I was describing exactly what I would want, which is to somehow combine psychology and design. And he told me that there was actually a new lab that was starting at the Neo Clinic, like a huge hospital system, studying the effect of the built environment on people. And they had reached out to him about maybe starting a physician. This was not in his wheelhouse at all, but that was exactly what I was looking for. So I joined as a behavioral scientist there, um, where we were running a living lab and basically changing different environmental conditions and studying their effect on people, which was such a fun dream job. I loved it. Um, and after that, I kind of got into even more applied research. So I worked at a company that um was based here in Montreal, where I'm at, called Breather, that had over 500 spaces around the world used for all sorts of uses. So from um classrooms to off-sites to therapy, all sorts of different kind of shorter-term uses. And I led research there, understanding how to create different spaces for different uses and especially multifunctional spaces that can um serve different purposes for people. Uh, and after that, that company started going bankrupt because they had a lot of leases, long-term leases, and that they were kind of sub-leasing for hours at a time. Uh, like in terms of the business model, it was a really difficult business to run. And one of my coworkers was starting a new startup that was in a totally different space. It was in finance, tech. And he really appreciated my research. So I joined actually as the second employee at this company called Composer, uh, and have done research and product management and all the way through product launches and working throughout the product development cycle. Uh, and yeah, that's where I'm at today. And apart from that, kind of in a separate track, I started doing ceramics around six years ago, which is one of my life's passions. Uh, and so I've been taking it actually quite seriously on the side alongside my product work.

Lyssia Katan:

The first is you're a perfect guest for the show because we really are the intersection of psychology and interior design and how our spaces affect us. But a quick question about ceramics. We'll get we'll get into it and I have a question about that. But is it true that you grew up in Poland? I did, yes. Do Polish ceramics have an or did they have an impact on your affinity for ceramics?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Yeah, I think so. Uh Bona Swabius is one of the famous companies in Poland. Uh for people who may not be familiar, it's kind of blue and white uh patterns. And blue and white is a combination in ceramics that pops up all around the world. It's a combination I used as well. Um, I think it's a, yeah, Poland is a region very rich in tradition in ceramics. And more broadly, ceramics as kind of a practice that people have been doing for over 25,000 years does have a rich tradition in what is now Central Europe. Like, for example, very old ceramics in the Czech Republic, uh, kind of figures from more than 20,000 years ago. So, yeah, the material history is rich for sure.

Lyssia Katan:

Wow. Wow, very cool. Okay, so let's start with the research side and then let's move on to ceramics because I have so many questions. Of course. Okay, so early in your career, you worked directly at the intersection of psychology and of the built environment. What originally drew you to studying how physical spaces affect attention and comfort and general well-being? Was there a singular moment?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think just being interested in spaces, always loving rearranging spaces, even as a kid, kind of setting up little models and setting up where little stuffed animals would be or anything like that. I'm also quite sensitive to the environment. So I think I'm quite aware of if people are uncomfortable, how to make the environment better. Um, and then just seeing how all of these spaces can be optimized and how that's not being done. I think there is so much research that we could be using to improve our environments. So I think that was really the motivation applying research.

Lyssia Katan:

Is there a reason why this research is not being used and it's being done, but it's not being communicated to the end user?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

So for people who are researchers, I think they do this research and they kind of stop there and they say, okay, it's someone else's job to apply it. It is obvious how you would apply it. It's someone else's job. And then for the practitioners, it is really friggin' difficult to apply research. I think it's like one thing to see research and then to actually put it into practice is often the hardest part. So I think there's just this mismatch of both sides kind of think it's maybe the other person's job to do that, or no one is directly accountable for that. Um, but yeah, I think there is a really big gap, and that's kind of the hardest part is like between doing the research and actually applying it into practice.

Lyssia Katan:

Right, absolutely. And was there like throughout growing up, you were reorganizing environments, reorganizing your space? Was there a moment when you realized that environments aren't neutral, whether physical or digital too, right? As you're working in the digital space, did you have an experience where you know you you really realize that wait a second, there's something going on here?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Yeah, I think all of us probably have different experiences of like, where is it good to study? What kind of space is good to relax in? How does a space make me feel? I think all of us as human beings, if we just look within, have that experience. So definitely, I mean, for example, like studying spaces, like if it's loud or quiet or what the environment is like, uh absolutely impact us. And um, yeah, it was kind of a lifetime of experience, I would say.

Lyssia Katan:

I went to school not too far from you in Drexel, uh, while you were at Penn. And I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I heard that they used to pump oxygen into the library to help people study. I don't know if this is true or not, but for some reason nobody would be falling asleep to the library. Um, are there things like invisible elements that we don't realize, or besides the obvious invisible elements that we don't realize or put into our spaces to kind of mold our behavior?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I'm not sure if consciously people are doing um those kind of psyops, uh, but certainly invisible factors like other people in the space, or um, especially noise. I think that's one where it a space can look beautiful, but be actually really hard to inhabit because of noise. Um uh temperature would be another one, like thermal comfort. Um, and of course, yeah, air quality and air circulation is another one. So all of these and smell as well. Um, probably things we don't see through a screen, especially when designing.

Lyssia Katan:

And in your work uh on interiors and workplaces, what were some of the most surprising mismatches in that you found between the way that a designer creates a space and the way it's actually used?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think the biggest mismatch came from designing for the visual and having 3D models to guide the design. And then the reality was the physical experience was quite different because you have all of this these other cues that people use. One really common one was noise, especially with um acoustics of glass um partitions. So I found that designers often want to let light further into the building, which totally makes sense. Like you are trying to put light deeper, and so you create these uh glass walls, which then creates like horrible echoes for people who are in this in the the kind of uh Glaston space, um, as well as a feeling of being watched in the space. So that was a really common mismatch. Another one was kind of contrast spaces that were often like dark to create some sort of contrast with a light space, like for example, like a very dark core, or maybe like around the elevators or a dark space. And those spaces ended up not being used quite often because people don't want to be in like a dark, small space. Um, and then the third really common one was humans, like other faces. So we know from research that people get really distracted by having faces around them, like even cartoon faces. So if you are trying to concentrate and there's like a face in front of you, um, as is typical, if you tried are trying to keep like a workspace very open and like the tables very open, you are facing another human being and that can be really distracting. And so I think it's really about what is the activity that people are intended to do or you're trying to encourage people to do in a given space. So, like let's say that a space is really for collaboration, like a meeting room or like a brainstorming room. Like, of course, like you want people there, you want people to be seeing each other. But if you are trying to create like a small workspace where someone is really trying to do focused work, like having another person right across from you can be very distracting.

Lyssia Katan:

How did you guys study this? Did you have participants hooked up and measure their focus? How does that look like? What does that study look like?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Yeah, at the at the Well Living Lab, we did have um people kind of um doing all sorts of like performance measures, like we're we're testing their cognitive performance as well as surveys. At uh Breather, we were typically relying on surveys from people. Um, and I do think that like our subjective experience is our experience. So often that is the best way, just understanding how people are feeling in the moment and what effects different um different spaces have on them.

Lyssia Katan:

Very cool. The things we don't even realize, like a cartoon painting across from us in our office. From a cognitive perspective, what are some subtle environmental factors beyond what we spoke about, like light, sound, or even layout, that really drain focus and increase mental friction without people realizing? It kind of goes back to the design question. What is design in a beautiful way, but actually is having a detrimental impact on people's ability to have mental well-being in the space?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

It's basically anything that comes to awareness. So if you're in the space and it rises to the level of awareness, whether that is noise in the space, whether that is a lack of light or like the wrong color light for what you're doing, um, whether that's the smell, whether that's the air quality, whether it's too cold or too hot for you. It's basically anything that in the moment um comes to the level of attention. And so it really depends on the space. Um, but I do think asking people um and having them kind of like evaluated is probably the best way to fight out in every situation.

Lyssia Katan:

Does it have to come to their level of awareness to be bothering them, or could it be like just below their level of awareness?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

It could be just below, but if it's coming to the level of attention, like that is bad. That is that is unequivocally bad.

Lyssia Katan:

Right. So different design elements, like you said, the the the sound bouncing around, or uh what about like tactile things? Are you a tactile person when you you said you're very sensitive? Is it physically with like fabrics and cushions?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Yeah. I mean, that is definitely a a factor. I don't know too much about research specifically on texture, but certainly like, for example, like wood grain, like real wood, like natural elements can be quite calming. Um, I imagine something like squeaky or you know, like uh rubbery, I can imagine that being off-putting, but I don't specifically know research about that.

Lyssia Katan:

When it comes to digital products as environments, and when you think about digital products as environments, what are the most common design choices that create unnecessary cognitive load or stress for users? Since this is a space that you are working in now.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Absolutely. So yeah, I do think the the most important thing is thinking about them as environments. So even though you're in like a larger space, if you're on your phone or in your computer, your attention is in the digital environment. And so that is kind of your primary environment. And I think the most common issues are not having information that people need in the moment they need it. So, as an example, let's say that you have information in one space and someone has to change to a different page or like a different tab to get other information that you need. We know from a lot of research that even like moving through a doorway makes you forget, which is why you're always like in another space and have forgotten why you're in another space. And the same is true of digital spaces. Like if you've left one space and aren't onto a new experience, it's hard to remember what it is you're trying to find. Um, another really common issue is presenting information in a way that makes it really hard to compare or integrate information. So, one example of that would be if you have a table of information and you want people to compare the information, to have it, let's say um above and below would be bad because you have to go through the different elements to compare each of the elements to each other. Something like side by side would be a lot easier. So I think the the most common, yeah, the generally the most common things are not having the information you need and then not presenting information in a way that's easy to understand in the moment.

Lyssia Katan:

I see. Well, the first point explains why every time I walk into another room, I forget why why I was there. And then I have to walk back and suddenly you remember when you're in the previous environment. So that happened. It's it's interesting to know that that happens in a digital sense too. And you've talked a lot about measuring real human experience rather than relying on assumptions, right? Um, in your in your work. How can people apply that living lab mindset to their own homes or workspaces without turning their lives into experiments? Right. You've worked with the living lab before.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Absolutely. I think it's taking the moment to come out of the task you're doing and to really take a more meta view of how is this working for me? How do I feel in this moment? Um, and I think often you will be able to identify what may be bothering you or what may be better. Um, but I do think that our view of the environment is quite holistic. And sometimes you might misattribute things. So, as an example, when I was doing research at this living lab, we were changing um the temperature, the light, uh, and the noise in a space. And when those three factors were uncomfortable, people also thought the air quality and the air circulation was bad, even though we didn't touch that at all. So I do think there's a kind of holistic evaluation of the environment that we all kind of naturally do, where we're saying, okay, is this generally good or is it generally bad? And if it's bad, you're kind of thinking maybe all of these different things that are bad. Um, but I do think if we just step back and try to evaluate it, we're pretty good at that.

Lyssia Katan:

Interesting. So people, when the light was low, or when those, you know, you did you work with sense too?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Did you add sense in the we didn't add no so we so the air quality was literally untouched, and they thought the air quality was worse. Or better, depending on the space. In this case, they actually it was only what it was bad that they thought it was worse.

Lyssia Katan:

Interesting. Wow, that's fascinating.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Really wild, really wild, because then yeah, you aren't touching that at all. And we know, and we had sensors on everything. We know we knew it was completely untouched. We didn't change it, we could measure that it was exactly the same, but still the subjective experience was different. Um, and that's something that I thought was really interesting working with a lot of building scientists is that a lot of like the foundational building science research is built on, I don't know what to call that, like test dummies, like test dummies of human bodies, where you just test how, for example, the temperature affects the dummy. Um, and they were super frustrated working with real people because it was like, oh my God, it's so noisy. They're so like we're changing this, uh, they're not responding, or we're not changing that, and they are responding. It's so messy. And um yeah, humans are complicated, human behavior is really complicated. Um, I see that also in the digital space. Now, especially with AI, for example, in marketing, people are trying to replace, for example, doing user interviews or user research with AI agents where you're just modeling human data and drawing conclusions. I think it's going to be the same exact thing as the test dummies case, where modeling behavior is a lot cleaner than measuring people's behavior because people are complicated.

Lyssia Katan:

And do you think that in design often they just don't take humans into consideration, especially when they're trying to make it look nice or make it appeal to they just disregard the fact that there's going to be humans living in there?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think it's trying to design a beautiful space. And of course, designers absolutely know knock on them. I think they're trying to do the best that they can. Um, but I have also observed the frustration of when actual humans move into the space and then it's like, oh, their workspaces are messy and they're bringing all these things in and it doesn't look as good. So I think it's it's it's a tough, it's a tough balance between wanting to make a beautiful space and then living with the reality as varied human behavior.

Lyssia Katan:

Or the practicality. Sometimes uh I've heard so many stories of these apartment buildings that look beautiful, but three days after the tenants move in, suddenly they can hear like the elevator shaft, or they can hear like people walking around outside, and it's it's just not practical.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Exactly. Like the function, the function is lacking.

Lyssia Katan:

So, how would a designer be able to incorporate all of these elements of complicated humans into their designs if they're not able to test it?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think it's probably knowing the basics, like having enough knowledge of research, either through books or guides or maybe a colleague. Um, because a lot of this, you can't predict everything. But if you look at a floor plan, and I think if you consider what it is like to be a person in that space and you really imagine yourself as a person in that space, a lot of this is predictable. Like, oh, if there's a glass wall, you're probably not gonna feel very private. Or like if you set up the workspaces this way, you're gonna be facing directly into another person and someone is right next to you, and maybe you don't feel as you are distracted by those people. So I I do think a lot of that is predictable if you model the human being versus if you model how the space. Looks like on an image, which I think is often like the rendering is what people look at. Um, so I do think it takes like a different perspective.

Lyssia Katan:

And there's been some really cool rendering technology that I've been seeing where AI is creating the space just off of a drawing. Is there a space where AI can be or potentially in the future be able to pick out, hey, like this is how humans tend to behave? Maybe like the AI would pull out the things that it doesn't think would be practical for a human.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think that would be amazing if, for example, if you have lot large surveys of how people actually feel in a space, like these are called like post-occupancy surveys. If you had like a large database of, okay, this was the design and this is how people felt. So, like in this kind of space or this kind of spatial arrangement, people complained about noise. I think if you had a data set and we're trying to pull up that information, that would be amazing. I'm not sure who was working on that, but yeah, I think that could be really cool.

Lyssia Katan:

Okay, cool. Well, hopefully someone can get started on that. Yep. They're listening right now. What lessons from environmental psychology do you wish more product teams applied when designing apps or digital products?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think one of the biggest ones is the incorporation of natural elements. So while we're in a digital environment, we are humans with bodies and experience in nature. And we know from physical environment research that we have this kind of biophilic tendency of wanting to be in a natural environment. Natural environments can be calming, all of this stuff. So whether that be like in textures, like versus like flat surfaces, whether that be in images of um nature, or even um in physical environments, things change through time. So things like materials age, materials change through the seasons. And like I think it would be really interesting if we incorporated more of that in the digital world. So, just as an example, people's color preferences change throughout the year, where around the fall in North America, people tend to prefer olives and oranges and colors, these colors become more preferred than at other times of year. And I'm sure you've seen that all. Like if you decide to decorate your house during the fall, like you might end up with a bit more orange that than you want. Um, so if these, if because the environment is changing and we're seeing those colors out in nature. So it would be, I think, super cool if we started incorporating more of these seasonal changes or changes throughout time in our digital experiences. Um, and then the other lesson I think we could be doing a better job applying is giving people control. So in a physical environment, people often end up changing the environment to make it more comfortable for themselves. Whether that is in an office or like the best would be a home. Like people t tend to customize things to their desire. So I think whenever possible, giving people the ability to control their digital environment and to customize it to what information they want or how they want it set up. And that kind of work, it it just takes time and it and it takes resources to support. So often that gets dropped. But um I do think it makes people more comfortable in those digital environments.

Lyssia Katan:

Right. I mean, I know with tools like um like task management tools like ClickUp, for example, it's super user-friendly. It helps you move things around and make it very custom to you. And that's part of the reason why we love platforms like that, because it's just everyone and the way I see our different team members using it, everyone's using it very differently. And going back to the colors, it's not even something that I I like thought about, but there are tiles and tile colors that tend to do so much better for us in the fall than they do in the spring, which is fascinating now that you mention it. That's just what draws people in. What is that? Is that like a physiological thing that we just crave these colors because they remind us of the harvest in fall?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I'm not sure if we know for sure what the reason is, but I think it's probably because we're seeing it in the environment. So that's why this study that I'm thinking of was done in North America. So I'm sure, you know, in the southern hemisphere, if the color, the environment's totally different that time of year, we wouldn't expect to see that change. So it is something about we're seeing it. And so we're more familiar with it, perhaps. Maybe it's like what we want to be surrounded by. Um, but yeah, very cool stuff. Are you seeing those color effects or it's more like patterns?

Lyssia Katan:

Okay. Yeah, we see them all the time. And it's so interesting that it's in the digital space too, because we think of ourselves as humans that are so modern and we have phones and we have technology, we have AI, but we're also physiologically, we've been around for hundreds of thousands of years, right? Our bodies and as humans, and there are certain things that you just, no matter how much AI and technology is incorporating, you just can't change, like the biophilic design you were mentioning.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Absolutely. It's some maybe some other factors are, you know, we are drawn to water, um, any kind of like natural elements that look like water in the digital space, I could imagine being quite calming. Another one is um splight movement. So not predictable movement, but more like fluttering of leaves or like air that moves in slightly unpredictable ways. I could see that being very interesting if applied digitally, some sort of semi-random, more natural movement.

Lyssia Katan:

Cool. So maybe like a banner, a website banner with like some moving parts, or like that's what is that why people love gifts so much? Because there's like a little bit of movement.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

We do know that there's um evidence that, for example, like virtual environments that have represent natural scenes. I mean, they can be they can be relaxing. So I do think it's it's drawing on something there.

Lyssia Katan:

Moving on to your work with ceramics, because I'm so curious. We're in tile, so it's something that I mean, I love, I've loved for a long time, and I love to see that you work with ceramics. It's a tactile and it's a slow practice, correct? Can you tell me a little bit about what kinds of ceramics? Are you throwing clay on a wheel? Are you doing hand building? What was your process?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Yeah, so I'm a thrower. Uh so basically, yeah, I've always loved ceramics. I've collected ceramics and yeah, and I always have collected blue and white ceramics to try to um make my house less overwhelming. And this is actually kind of an interesting research tie-in. Like, for example, people who are more um introverted tend to prefer less stimulation in the environment. I'm definitely someone who's quieter. I prefer things to be sparse. Um, and so having the blue and white ceramics kind of made my dining room quite calm. Um, and then I decided to try ceramics. Uh, and the first time I tried the wheel, it was like, this is it. I'm doing this forever. I love it. It's so hard. It's so hard, and there's no shortcut. And I love that because it really is skill. Like you have to build skill, you have to enjoy the practice, and that's something that I really, really like. Uh, I mostly throwing porcelain, which is also like a difficult clay, which I love with a long tradition. Um and um, yeah, and I guess like the things that I really enjoy about it is that you there's no faking it with throwing. Um, I think with uh more hand building or slab, you can start up quite quickly, which is really great for people because you can like try and it will look okay when you start. But with throwing, like it's gonna look terrible. And you just the only way out is through practice. So I really love that. Um, I think the things that are similar to what I get out of building products or working on environments is that I'm definitely a maker. I love making things real. And I do think that whether that's ceramics or spaces or products, like that's that same drive. Um, and then I do mostly work on functional work, like for example, like a cup or a bowl. And so the practical consideration of you want to make this handle very nice for a person to hold or comfortable, like those are similar to what I'm doing uh in product. Um, the things that are really different, I think a connection to material history, like a material history of over 25,000 years and making objects that are long-lasting, because tech especially it comes and goes, it's very short-lived. It's like, what's the next cool, interesting thing? And you're building something, but then it's onto the next versus like you can see a ceramic that is several thousand years old and it feels super modern and interesting, and you have a connection with someone um who existed then, uh, and then also expressing myself versus trying to meet a user's needs or a person's needs, um, those feel very different because I'm really trying to express some sort of worldview.

Lyssia Katan:

And is there a connection between the handmade things that have just been around for so long or made by a human to the way that we react to them? Is there research in in that space?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Absolutely. So people do, um, when things are labeled as handmade, people do find them more valuable. And of course, what is handmade is completely it's a gray zone because we could call like sneakers produced in a factory handmade because people are interacting with the process. So it really is a label in some ways, but um, people do value things that are handmade more, and they uh especially think that things are more valuable because there's a person's love of the process and the object in that item. Um, and so there's also research that people tend to prefer getting handmade items as gifts to loved ones versus like your boss, um, where you might be less desiring of like conveying that. So I think there's something there that that human connection both between you and the maker and then also what that object represents.

Lyssia Katan:

I mean, we see that with tile all the time. One of our most popular collections are the Liege Tile collection. Those are handmade in Morocco, and each piece is so imperfect, but people just love them. They love the imperfection, they love the pits and chips and cracks, and and they can't get enough of them. And I think a big part of that is it does show imperfection and and we're humans, right? We're imperfect. So maybe we're even seeing part of ourselves.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Yes. And I can I'm so interested to see what happens with AI. Um, because AI is more, let's say, perfect, more flat. Um, and so I think to show our humanity, I think we're going to kind of push the handmade to be even more like showing that this was made by a person, showing the imperfection. Um, yeah, I'm really curious how that will all go.

Lyssia Katan:

Yeah, me too, honestly. Uh it's things are getting more and more digital every day. And I think that's pushing us in the opposite direction. Where it's like you said, we when first when ChatGPT first came out, we were so excited. And then now we're multiple models in and we're like, okay, it's a new version, but like it just it changes so fast. Whereas a bowl that maybe was passed down to you from your grandmother is something that you appreciate a lot more than this groundbreaking technology.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

And it's also different uses. Like I am super into AI, especially when it comes to taking out drudgery of people's work. I think it has the potential to let us be creative and focus on the things that only humans can do. Um, so yeah, what are we using it for? Is it to replace the human or is it to kind of augment and let us do things that only we can do, which includes a handmade also? Maybe we'll be spending more time on handmade. We'll see.

Lyssia Katan:

I hope so, because I just I saw a video of uh 3D printing in clay and it creating these perfect vases, but it takes away the beauty and and sometimes a therapeutic aspect of humans creating. So, how do you think that's gonna impact? Like, do you think it'll continue to push us in that direction?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think it's really interesting that you said therapeutic because there is research that um making things by hand of any sort makes us feel more competent. In history, like one episode that I thought was really interesting is after World War I, a lot of the occupational therapy for soldiers who had gone through it was craft and like crochet and woodworking and all of these things to make someone feel like they are producing something in the world. And I do think that that can be quite healing and also make someone feel quite competent. So I I do think that probably in an ever more AI world, I do think people will probably want that feeling and want that feeling of competence. So I could see it absolutely both craft and and things like cooking or anything that's like in the physical world, I I do think we have a need for asserting our competence in the world.

Lyssia Katan:

Is that physiological like the biophilic thing? Or like as humans, we just have the need to make, or is that just something that happens to be relaxing?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think it needs an outcome because in the studies I'm thinking of, when people made something and then were told to take it apart, it didn't have that effect. So it's not about the action. I think it's really about seeing the outcome of your um creation. And I think maybe some a tie-in, I don't know if you see this with your tiles, but even when people customize items that are, let's say, made in a factory, they feel some ownership and some level of connection in this thing that they customize as like a designer. Um, that I don't think you physically always have to make the product, but something where you're imbuing your idea onto the world, onto the physical world.

Lyssia Katan:

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. We see that all the time. We have uh we offer customers the ability to custom color their tiles and their connection to their custom colored cement tiles versus just our standard in-stock colors is is night and day. They're willing to wait the 12 to 14 weeks. They're willing, and they're so proud when they're installing them because it it is their work of art. Do you see a connection between making something with your hands and designing environments, whether physical and digital, uh, that support human well-being, the connection between them two.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

Yeah, I think it's like, do you want to make the world better for people? I guess like that's what it comes like. Do you want to make something better? And whether that's in the physical space, whether that's in the digital space, is it just because you want to like put something out there? I do think that there's this maker instinct though that I've seen in so many people that like I tend to see people who, if they're a maker in one thing, they probably are a maker in other ways. And yeah, and I love to be surrounded by people like that because I feel like they build the world. Makers build the world.

Lyssia Katan:

Right, especially in a time when there's so much consumption, making is refreshing. So if someone listening wanted to immediately improve how their environment supports focus or calm based off of your research, uh, what's one change you would suggest that they try this week? And what would it be? If you're not close to a window, get thee to a window.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

So if you are working and if there's any chance for you to get daylight and a view, uh, we know that not only does it improve your cognitive performance. So in a study I did, we found that people's working memory, how much they can store in their mind and inhibition. So being able to suppress information when needed improves when they have access to daylight and view. Um, but it we also know from all of this biophilic research that any kind of natural element can be quite calming and restore attention. And if you don't have like a beautiful tree outside, it could be the sky, like the clouds and the in the sky or the changing of the light can provide a natural element. Um, so yeah, both in the moment and also for your stress reduction, I would say, window.

Lyssia Katan:

Okay. Get in your window and get a plant. And looking back, this is something we like to ask everyone. Is there a space that changed you? Like a space that you walked into that really just changed you past or present?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I would say there is an island in Maine that my husband's close friend has a vacation home on. It's like one of these communities that people go to summer. Uh, and they've been summering there for generations. And we've gone there several times. And this island, I would say, is life-changing because everything is much slower. Um, you see the coast of Maine, like Mount Desert off on the coast. It is beautiful. You're absorbing the seasons and just the idea of summering, I would love to summer. That is kind of like a dream of mine to to live this more slowed-down experience. And in terms of like my ceramics, I feel like this space is extremely inspirational and has pushed me to express this inspiration in ways that I think I wasn't doing before I went. So I think whenever I think of a space that is just extremely inspiring, it's fine.

Lyssia Katan:

Does the slow craft in your ceramics impact the way that you live? Does it slow you down?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think I'm just I'm someone who likes getting details as not right, but I do like being focused on details and doing a good job in whatever that means in the moment. So I do love having that in ceramics to really be able to sit there and like try. I guess the other aspect of ceramics that has really impacted my life is that failure is inevitable. Things crap. I'm sure it's the same for you all. Just things crack, things mess up at every moment. And so the ability to face failure, accept it, and move on to the next has been very, very good.

Lyssia Katan:

Have you ever had a piece where it was almost perfect and then one small move and it just completely Yes, so many.

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think one that I can think of is I had just trimmed. So for people who aren't familiar, you throw a piece and then uh like on the wheel and then you trim the bottom. So this was like two weeks into a bunch of pieces, like a whole tray of them. And then I was cleaning up my pottery studio and a mop knocked the entire sheet of the pieces down to the ground. And what can you do? You just laugh. Okay, that's that. Move on.

Lyssia Katan:

That's also the beauty of handmade, right? It can be hand destroyed very quickly. As someone who has worked across psychology, technology, and making, how do you hope environments, both physical and digital, will be designed differently in the future to better support mental health, focus, and people's ability to make intentional choices every day?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think so. Our physical spaces can only typically be customized so much because we have somewhat limited resources, all of us. But our digital environments are customized all the time. Um, and they can be hyper-customized to what we're interested in, but what we're interested in in the moment. Um, and I think that makes it really hard for people to direct their own attention because you just are faced with something that is so interesting to you, more interesting than anything you could possibly experience. Um, and I think that's probably one reason why, for example, Mark Zuckerberg limits his kids' screen time quite heavily, like you are aware of what you're building. Um, so I think two consequences of that. One, I do think physical spaces become quite important as a way to experience reality that is more messy and more difficult. And you have to be bored in, which I think is actually really good for us. I think that's one consequence. And then the other, I do hope that we create environments, digital environments that let us exert some sort of control. Um, so in psychology, we call it hot cognition and cold cognition. So hot cognition is like very emotional in the moment, you're just reacting. Like, let's say an impulse purchase versus cold cognition, it's more rational. You're thinking through things. We are responding to the digital environment in a very hot cognition way and shaping it. I do hope that we have we get some sort of controls to let us override or structure our environment when we're in a more, let's say, rational state that will um make it better for us in the hot cognition state. I know that people use like limited screen time or something, but it is so easy to override that uh or things like that. I feel like they're just more token gestures. So I do hope that we get that we there's a movement for more intentional shaping of digital environments that aren't just there to mine people's attention.

Lyssia Katan:

And you say the physical environment is important as a space for us to escape from the digital environment?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I think it's just um a counterbalance. So yeah, I uh I I do think that there is a movement and likely even a growing movement of having more just being present in the physical world. I think, for example, with like high school banning phones and kids like learning to play cards with one another in a physical cafeteria, like I think that's fantastic. Um but yeah, yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

Lyssia Katan:

Are there any elements of your research that you wish the world could hear?

Dr. Anja Jamrozik:

I would say like the subjective experience is your experience, is one. So really trusting how you feel and checking in and also checking in how people are feeling. So if you're designing a home, how are all of the people in the home finding it? How are people in an office finding it? Like really taking that seriously. And then I think the other one is if you design for everybody, you design for nobody. So really understanding who it is that is served by a space and what they're doing. Um, because you can't anticipate every use and every person who may inhabit the space, so really focusing it on those people who will be there and what they're doing in there.

Lyssia Katan:

Dr. Anya, thank you so. Much for your research, your brain, everything you've done, and for spending the time with me on this podcast. I hope that truly people are able to listen to this and change their spaces and in turn change their lives. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for spending this time with me on Room2Think. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to follow the show, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who you think would really appreciate a more thoughtful approach to their space. You can find more Design Meets Psychology insights on social, in our community, and definitely in upcoming episodes so you can build a better life by design. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you next time.